Do you think that what Jean Grey did in X-Men Red #5 was ethical?

[Tazpocalapse]

The bold part is pretty implicit regarding it being a moral mission.



And?

Mind wiping Vanisher was not an ethical use of Professor X's powers. It was WAY overkill.



Thoughts are more sacrosanct than the body. This is why assault is a crime and torture is a crime against humanity. Torture is designed to inflict suffering and mental torment. That emotional pain is what makes torture worse than just physical harm to someone.

The bold part is a statement without any weight behind it.

Jean Grey did not have consent from ANY of the mutants present to reveal their psychic being to the soldiers. By your own statement that no X-man should use their abilities on anyone without consent, she violated that by violating them.

And if you say "Well it saved their lives" that is post-event justification for an immoral act. Claiming "it was for your own good" is just about the ultimate slippery slope for someone in a position of power (which Jean Grey absolutely is).



I thought I was being pretty clear with the #ShadowKingDidNothingWrong that I'm giving Mr. Farouk an unlimited pass. :P

If it does imply a moral mission who said that it coincides with what you consider morals, and what Prof X does.

You call it overkill others call in necessary.

My statement was in reference of no X-man has asked for consent from their opponents to use their abilities to save others, as it would be rather ridicolous. I can imagine Iceman asking someone for permission before he mentally lowers their body temperature to subdue them. You don't get it? Any X-man or mutant that uses their abilities against someone can be considered against the person consent. However it seems we will disagree on this. So that is all i have to say on the matter.

[Tazpocalapse]

Do...

Do you think that stage hypnosis with Magicians is real?

Attachment 67027

No i am speaking of magical aspects such as enchantments,glamors,bindings, those sorts of things spells that compel beings to tell the truth.

[Tazpocalapse]

Projection.

Try a flavor other than salty and people might believe you're not the one acting SUPER emotional right now.

We're discussing comic book characters. You don't need to take it personally because you like the fictional red-head getting criticized due to actions a writer had her take in a story.

I'm not acting super emotional having a convo about comics. She is not my favorite Redhead but i do like Jean Grey.

[KurtW95]

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/...glish/hypnosis I think i will take this over your expert opinion.

Of course it’s to influence something, but it’s all done at the consent of the person being hypnotized. It’s not mind control. People’s eyes don’t go swirly like cartoons. They can snap out of it any time they want.

[Jesse-James]

But can murder be moral?

Jean exposed the psyches of people against their will to others.

If she had exposed their bodies...would that also be okay?

Also, an action can be justified after the fact...while still being unethical. I am starting to think people might not understand that.

If a police officer, for instance, uses his resources in a to find out about a woman he met and he courts her and they end up in a happy relationship and she is happy with what he did to find her (despite it having had nothing to do with his job)...that wouldn't mean what he did was ethical. Even though no one was even hurt by it, and both parties involved are happy it happened...it was still unethical.

She did not murder anyone and she did not expose bodies. That would be a whole other discussion!


We were the discussing what she did do, not if had done other things. What she did do here was fine by me and the best thing to do to avoid a slaughter. I already said murder is murder. But again that is another discussion, so lets drop that part.

Oh and do not underestimate your fellow board members, they do understand, but to some (like me) justified is weighting heavier than unethical.

[Gray Lensman]

It's no more unethical than putting on a funny costume and beating up criminals without a badge.

[Master of Sound]

It's no more unethical than putting on a funny costume and beating up criminals without a badge.

Or doing a "No More ....."
Or wipe out memories of someones brother
Or shutting someone brain off

[darkalamator]

Emma is more fun when dealing with mobs... ;-)

[Heroine Addict]

Haven't given it much thought at all, really, if any. So yeah, guess so. And nothin' for nuthin, but...

... just sayin'.

[JasonEsta]

I actually look forward to that, although I still stand by the idea that some readers believe Jean is some saint like figure she never was. She's killed before, I mean as just Jean Grey, she isn't the frail flower some believe her to be. And I also don't think she's someone unwilling to bend, change, or modify her plans based on the information she has available.

It's going to be interesting to see how she gets to grow, and learn from this new landscape.




These are great questions given the current books? I could surmise, Kitty would have saved everyone in Gold team be damned, and I wouldn't have been surprised if Mags slaughtered them, at least Lorna would have given them the option to flee....maybe.

Jean was damn near torturing herself after Fatal Attractions when she and Xavier invaded Magneto's mind...issue atter issue, she thought it was stooping down to Magneto's level and thought Exodus had proper motivation in Bloodties when he attempted revenge against them all.

[remydat]

You are allowed to kill people in self defense or defense of others. The soldiers were about to commit murder and the law and ethics allows you to respond with equal force.

So by right Jean would be allowed to kill those soldiers to defend those mutants and what she did was significantly more humane and resulted in zero bloodshed.

That is really the only legal and ethical consideration. Every other argument is just people arguing about what they would have done differently which is easy to do in fiction when you are not actually at risk.

It doesn't matter if Jean had other options. All that matters is whether the option she chose was commensurate with the risk. As the threat was imminent and would have resulted in a massacre or genocide, the answer is yes.

[donpricetag]

Ethics Vs. Doing the right thing.

What she did, forcing her will on someone elses mind (no asked to have their mind opened up to a new way of thinking) was unethical, but from a humanity standpoint, to avoid the murdering of innocents, it was most certainly the right thing to do. She's done this before in the past. Frenzy/Blockbuster/Joanna Cargil comes to mind during the Magneto Wars. I suspect that was actually when Frenzy started on her path to being a hero. Perhaps a soft suggestion was left behind after Jean basically shoved her hand up her mental backside and turned her into a puppet.

[Midnight_v]

I suspect that was actually when Frenzy started on her path to being a hero. Perhaps a soft suggestion was left behind after Jean basically shoved her hand up her mental backside and turned her into a puppet.

HAHAHA, something, something, Bobby Drake, something, something clever.


All jokes aside though... I really think Emma was more ethical in the above picture than Jean is.

Someone asked me why I think this is Madelyn Pryor, and I said "Its because its almost like watching a caricature of what someone evil would think Jeans personality would be."
Thing is so many writers over so many years have had a crack at writing Jean Grey that there isn't very much solid consistency.
I read all of Nate Greys X-men in the 90's and I kept being reminded how there are other Madelyn Pryors out there who aren't imperfect clones. I get that feeling "... I know a Maddy when I see one..."
even though I'm wrong cannonically I'm stuck with thinking that now, maybe its the way her facial expressions are begin drawn? She seems very wide eyed crazy, and has that demanding pout of a person thats
very... I don't know... spoiled inside... turned like soured milk. Almost like she came back from the grave different from how she's been. ymmv.

I'm also torn because there's been some really good arguments on both sides.
Maybe this is the way that telepaths do battle, and she did respond to "Lethal Force" with "Non-lethal force" she could have done a lot worse most likely.
On the other hand she could have just said "Hey! No more shooting" and it would have stopped without giving force giving them "The Feels".

So I think the idea of "Was this ethical" is almost a False Dichotomy. Its almost a "How ethical was this?"
with
1. Being the Lightest dissuasion a World Class level telepath can muster?
and
10. Being: Mind-wipe= Vegetable, Kill Your Partner, Permanent Selective Amnesia: Forget Everyone who loves you, and everyone in your unit, When you get home kill your family

On any use of force continuum its "use the least amount of force needed" but they'd already escalated to deadly force so... maybe they got off easy.

The only problem with this is: What kind of person is Jean Grey, now? Use the least force? Or... ensure a spanking?
and if it isn't "use the least force needed" and wants to be involved in politics she's not too different from the hellfire club.

I'm aware that in the modern era some people feel like "no wrong tactics, only wrong targets" but thats how you get a world dominated by sentinels... or worse Furies.

[Gray Lensman]

Or doing a "No More ....."
Or wipe out memories of someones brother
Or shutting someone brain off

It doesn't even come close to those things. I mentioned beating up criminals while in a funny costume because its the central conceit to making superhero stories work. Jean's actions here are no worse than the basics of what comic books are all about in the first place.

[Grey]

Telepathy is fine when it’s consensual or they’re using it to actually prevent deaths. Or using as a means for communicaton in the most dire of situations (for instance; Charles talking through Sabretooth in the first X-Men movie). Or to find and contact people in trouble. But don’t rewrite somebody’s personality if they’re just doing their job or pry into the secrets of a minor nuisance.

But she didn’t rewrite anyone’s personality. I don’t know how else to say this. She showed them something. That’s it.