Superior Spider-Man #12

[Revolutionary_Jack]

May have asked detractors of the Superior Spider-Man the following before, have you read Christopher Yost's SpOck? He wrote the character best, an arrogant ass who wants to help but admits his faults. I'd recommend Yost's take.

No amount of admission of faults negates the arrogance of a character who hijacked the body of another guy and perpetuates a fraud. It's not so far from those comedians like Louis CK whose comedy acts apparently used his creepy off-stage behavior as material which you can read as self-criticism but as also a kind of Tony Soprano-esque narcissism. Tony murders people and goes to a shrink and complains about it and then goes back and murders more people and feels bad again...

I like how Hickman treated Superior in his Avengers/New Avengers run...you can sense the total contempt on the part of the writer for that version. That's how Superior Trash should be treated, with contempt.

[Lukmendes]

Really Anna Maria? Really?

Seems like the point of this line is that Otto looks at the mind while Spidey goes for hot chicks.

But that's completely ignoring that Peter doesn't date women just for their body, if they're not good people who he enjoys being around, then yeah, not happening.

The classic tactic of undermining one character to make the other look better, generally unnecessary and 100% mean spirited, how I wish this wasn't real, or at least if one is undermined to make the other look better, at least don't tell lies.

[Junco]

It also ignores that Otto totally tried to sleep with MJ.

[Tendrin]

Seems like the point of this line is that Otto looks at the mind while Spidey goes for hot chicks.

But that's completely ignoring that Peter doesn't date women just for their body, if they're not good people who he enjoys being around, then yeah, not happening.

The classic tactic of undermining one character to make the other look better, generally unnecessary and 100% mean spirited, how I wish this wasn't real, or at least if one is undermined to make the other look better, at least don't tell lies.

Or maybe just acknowledging that Peter does, in fact, conveniently date supermodels and hot girls throughout the entire run. Has Peter /ever/ given anyone like Anna Maria a second look? And moreover, Anna Maria is not omniscient. That's the difference /she/ sees based on her personal experience. Her opinion isn't the writer's gospel and it's not like she knows of his interaction with MJ.

[Tendrin]

As you said it was "One of the things" and not the main essential thing. The Superior Spider-Man as a concept ran all over the place and tonally the moral argument was hollow and insincere when they got around to spelling the obvious.

And again even this issue tries to argue that Otto is somehow a moral person with that wretched sexist line of dialogue about that "other Spider-Man dating Black Cats and supermodels" which is again a rephrase of Slott trying to demean MJ and other love interests as being "anti-Marvel". The attempt is that on some level Otto has some kind of moral claim over Peter or something which is totally bizarre, sexist, mean-spirited, grounded entirely in a kind of underground man resentment.

The truth is that Superior Spider-Man as an ongoing ran on the engine of a bad boy vicarious fantasy. That's what the majority of fans ran on...and Slott and others never once corrected the record. When Alan Moore wrote Watchmen and people said they were fans of Rorscharch, Moore always raised an eyebrow and told him that Kovacs was an asshole. Alan Moore never once tried to have things both ways. In the case of Slott...anytime someone comes and says they are fans of Otto and Superior's approach to crimefighting, he never stops to correct it. Sure if someone says they found it disturbing, he said that was intended but that doesn't mean much when you don't hold the first group to task. IN other words having things both ways, which also shows a lack of conviction in any moral imperative of the series, animated rather by a sense of gimmick and shallow cleverness. Anytime you see Superior Spider-Man fan threads, it's in praise of Ock in a lot of cases, with people saying Otto was an effective crime fighter and so on.

There was any moral conviction in Superior Spider-Man and that is the paramount reason why it's a failure as a story and concept.

Oh brother.

[Lukmendes]

Or maybe just acknowledging that Peter does, in fact, conveniently date supermodels and hot girls throughout the entire run. Has Peter /ever/ given anyone like Anna Maria a second look? And moreover, Anna Maria is not omniscient. That's the difference /she/ sees based on her personal experience. Her opinion isn't the writer's gospel and it's not like she knows of his interaction with MJ.

In that case she's being an unfair bitch to Peter, specially considering she spends the entire run saying that Otto is a creep, or a criminal, or a creep and a criminal, but in this part in particular she decides to kiss his ass while talking shit about Peter? Come on now lol.

Not saying that she can't praise Otto, but praising him while talking shit about Peter is just weird, and makes it come off as the writter just wanting to talk shit about Peter, 'cause I don't think it's in her character to do that.

[Tendrin]

In that case she's being an unfair bitch to Peter, specially considering she spends the entire run saying that Otto is a creep, or a criminal, or a creep and a criminal, but in this part in particular she decides to kiss his ass while talking shit about Peter? Come on now lol.

Not saying that she can't praise Otto, but praising him while talking shit about Peter is just weird, and makes it come off as the writter just wanting to talk shit about Peter, 'cause I don't think it's in her character to do that.

I really don't buy that Gage just wanting to talk shit about Peter. At all. Or that this is an unfair opinion for her to hold. Peter literally does the thing she's saying he does and Otto does the thing she's saying he does from a certain point of view. Does she think Otto is better than Peter? No, she pretty obviously doesn't, as judged by literally the entire rest of the series.

[HypnoHustler]

In that case she's being an unfair bitch to Peter,

Is that necessary? Chill with that kind of language.

[Lukmendes]

I really don't buy that Gage just wanting to talk shit about Peter. At all. Or that this is an unfair opinion for her to hold. Peter literally does the thing she's saying he does and Otto does the thing she's saying he does from a certain point of view. Does she think Otto is better than Peter? No, she pretty obviously doesn't, as judged by literally the entire rest of the series.

Yes, they do those things, but the way she words it makes it look like Peter is someone who just goes after hot women and nothing else, and arguably undermines MJ, Felicia and whoever else he dated as people, it just sounds like a mean spirited jab at Peter.

[Tendrin]

Yes, they do those things, but the way she words it makes it look like Peter is someone who just goes after hot women and nothing else, and arguably undermines MJ, Felicia and whoever else he dated as people, it just sounds like a mean spirited jab at Peter.

Whole lotta presumptions operating in this thread on the whole, I think.

[boots]

Or maybe just acknowledging that Peter does, in fact, conveniently date supermodels and hot girls throughout the entire run. Has Peter /ever/ given anyone like Anna Maria a second look? And moreover, Anna Maria is not omniscient. That's the difference /she/ sees based on her personal experience. Her opinion isn't the writer's gospel and it's not like she knows of his interaction with MJ.

exactly. characters aren’t and shouldn’t be writer’s mouth pieces


like people they should have a diverse range of opinions from unfair to triggered to biased to rational to...what you see on this board

[Tendrin]

exactly. characters aren’t and shouldn’t be writer’s mouth pieces


like people they should have a diverse range of opinions from unfair to triggered to biased to rational to...what you see on this board

Lotta defensiveness over Spidey.

[boots]

Lotta defensiveness over Spidey.

peter has a right to hotties. pretty sure it’s one of the amendments

[JTHM]

Man. This just ain't it.

I hope some zombie eats Mephisto in Marvel Zombies Resurrection. That's all I can think after this.

This sucks.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Was hoping someone would point this out. But yeah. To quote the great Oscar Wilde, "It would take a heart of stone not to laugh" at Tolliver's funeral.



It proves he's a vain narcissist and selfish jackass since all he cares about is his manpain.



No it didn't. If Otto was truly selfless he would do what a real reformed criminal would have done...
A) Go to the Police.
B) Confess every single one of his crimes.
C) Turn himself in.
D) Go to jail and stay there.

You can't do any kind of redemption story without a genuine admission of wrong and submission to the social norms you violated. And no criminal can be selfless as long as they continue to profit of their crimes. In the wisdom of Hamlet's usurping Uncle Claudius, "My words fly up, My thoughts remain below/Words without thoughts never to heaven go"

I'm just highlighting what I think Gage was trying to say/show with this issue. Whether or not you agree is totally up to you. We just have to wait and see who picks up the baton with Ock after this, because that will be what defines the character moving forward. I feel he will return to villainy, but they'll downplay the megalomania a bit. It will still be there. Just not AS much.