Controversial Batfamily Opinions

[Zaresh]

At this point Jason Todd characterization conflict:
1. Hero vs Anti hero vs Villain vs Anti villain
2. Gun vs no gun (though I heard this has been decided by WB to be no guns)
3. How close to Bat family
4. Street level vs superhero

Well, some of those points are already set in the main DCU if you look at his comics for the last 2 years. And another was pretty constant too except for sidestories for him, like his role in Leviatan, for a few more years previously.

1. He hasn't been a real villain in the main DCU since New 52 (11 years ago). He has been suspected to be a traitor because of his past several times, and has been antagonistic to Bruce in particular a few times in that time. He has also collaborated with a villain a few times too, but you can say the same for other bats, too. He has been a villain in elseworlds and alternate realities a few times too, but again, you can say the same for the others. His allignment place since the new 52 arrived seems to be an anti-hero who has heroic moments and also neutral, rebellious or uncomfortable stands. Some fans who would like him a bad guy or a bastard who can be a villain may not like it, but as I said, I think it is pretty set at this point. For now. Things can change a lot 5 years in the future. Most Jason fans like him an antihero as far as I know. It's the option that tends to win every poll.
2. No guns in the main DCU and more general audience aimed works. It seems to be a problem in certain markets, and they have decided to change it. I think this started in the second half of his last RHATO run, or at least, we were already commenting that back in the day when we saw it shifting towards no guns. There may be more reasons, but at least that one is almost confirmed. It's not going to be a well received change, because most fans like him with guns. But we can't do much about it. And it's not like Jason didn't use a wide array of weapons before, so, well, there's that.
3. DC has decided that he's close to the core fam, enough to go and help them in certain cases and events, but not close enough to be a regular: he's what I call, a "cousin". He's in a similar spot than Cass but not as close as Steph or Barbara are, and seems to have a rocky relationship with Bruce (and only him), which is to be expected. This has been the regular take for the last 5 years or so for most of the writers that used him. It's a place some fans would like to be closer, and some other, farer. So I guess it's not a bad spot in the range.
4. This one is the one that's less set. But again, you can say the same for the other bats, included Batman. I love diversity in stories, so I can't really complain. Fans are pretty divided here, too. Same as Batman fans with this topic.

There's a lot of smaller things that need to be set, as you have already mentioned. But you can say the same about stablished characters, like Dick or Tim, that have been runing for longer. Right now, I think, the one better defined is Damian.

Also, fans never, ever get to a consensus. There's a part that will always complain about ten different things. I guess this is why they try to find a balanced place every few years, for the shifting readership. And why DC never pleases everyone.

Me, specfically, here's the branch I like:
Kill when necessary but otherwise no > Anti Hero > Out of Gotham > Street level > Guns! > Team optional > A fugitive in some states > Can visit Gotham > Not estranged with the Bat fam (reached an understanding) > Snarky family member who raid the fridge when he visits and I don't hate you but otherwise leave me the **** alone, dad

Pretty average fan take on Jason. I think.

[CPSparkles]

Having multiple batgirls, robins and Red Hood's characterization's conflicts splits bases and divide's the fans.
If DC keeps doing that then those characters affected will struggle building/maintaining a dedicated sizeable fan base.

[MajorHoy]

Since we can't have our Nightwing go back the Teen Titans since he aged out, I think it could be fun to have a Nightwing from a different Earth running around who is still a teen.
The interactions between the two Nightwings would be very intriguing.

But Dick wasn't really Nightwing when he was "still a teen" unless you mean around 19 years old.

Younger Dick would have still been using the Robin identity, which Dick had still maintained when he first went to college.
Unless that got retconned away when I wasn't reading; hell, is there even a definite agreement at DC as to how old Dick was when he first became Robin these days?

[godisawesome]

Having multiple batgirls, robins and Red Hood's characterization's conflicts splits bases and divide's the fans.
If DC keeps doing that then those characters affected will struggle building/maintaining a dedicated sizeable fan base.

That was never the case during the Post-Crisis years when they first expanded them, nor was it the case when Inc. kicked off a new Renaissance for the properties. Nor did it stop Green Lantern from experiencing their renaissance. Nor did it stop the X-books. Pretty much every time that franchises expanded into numerous “redundant” characters, it was because they knew they would succeed…. And then they did… and then years later other, generally more logistical problems eventually derailed everything.

The characters and their numbers don’t threaten each other. A depleted roster of writers who lean more towards mediocre writing than competent, and a tendency by DC to try fixing what isn’t broken in their most successful franchise, has much more to do with the fanbases shrinking.

What infighting there is among fanbases has more to do with editorial groups trying to enforce some scheme for limited rosters or limited roles.

[Micael]

That was never the case during the Post-Crisis years when they first expanded them, nor was it the case when Inc. kicked off a new Renaissance for the properties.

I hope they bring Batman Inc back. Some of the batfamily characters would do well working the international scene and interacting with other characters. Honestly Tim Drake seems tailor made for this approach. When Morrison was writing Inc it seemed like he wanted him and Bruce to travel around the world together working with international heroes and solving crisis outside of Gotham. Cass, Steph, Duke could all do the same

[TheRay]

Every member of the Batfamily could probably carry their own book.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Every member of the Batfamily could probably carry their own book.

But alot of them do overlap in terms of characterization/skills etc. A way to solve that is separating them via location. Sending them out into the larger DCU feels like the good way to go. Batman Inc could helps the batfamily stand out from Batman's shadow.

[MakeNightwingGreatAgain]

But alot of them do overlap in terms of characterization/skills etc. A way to solve that is separating them via location. Sending them out into the larger DCU feels like the good way to go. Batman Inc could helps the batfamily stand out from Batman's shadow.

I think having a Batfam character as part of another characters mythos would be nice. They can operate in their own little corner of those mythos and become a significant character separate from the rest of the batfam. Like Babs would do well in the world of Blue Beetle and Booster Gold. Nightwing, idk where he would go yet, but perhaps somewhere where the old meets new. Maybe spyral? Tim has obviously taken over the teen titans/young justice front. Damian can stay with Batman. Cass and Stephanie can do BOP/Batgirls stuff.

I think it’d help if DC you know, introduced new characters and worlds lol that way it’s easier for the batfam to spread out and only cross over if the situation calls for it.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I think having a Batfam character as part of another characters mythos would be nice. They can operate in their own little corner of those mythos and become a significant character separate from the rest of the batfam. Like Babs would do well in the world of Blue Beetle and Booster Gold. Nightwing, idk where he would go yet, but perhaps somewhere where the old meets new. Maybe spyral? Tim has obviously taken over the teen titans/young justice front. Damian can stay with Batman. Cass and Stephanie can do BOP/Batgirls stuff.

I think it’d help if DC you know, introduced new characters and worlds lol that way it’s easier for the batfam to spread out and only cross over if the situation calls for it.

It helps with the illusion of change and offer more opportunities.

I'm cool with Steph volunteering at an Amazon run women's shelter. Tim should go to Ivy University. Azrael could be the Bat representative of Rome. Luke should've went into space while Jean hung out with JLD. Barbara was based in Silicon Valley when she was with the Birds and I'm cool with her going back under different circumstances.

I preferred Dick with Spyral so maybe he could join the DEO? That works better for Bette.

[Aahz]

Most Jason fans are either content or even happy with Jason's level of exposure, stories, and characterization right now. With Future State Gotham being quite the surprise for him overall.

I still think that:
- it happens way to often that he is used way to often to prop up some other Batfamily members or villains (more often than any other of the core members imo)
- way to rarely that he is presented as capable crime fighter who can take down a major villain on his own (especially in cross overs and events)
- that the amount of training he has (All-Caste+lots of guys Thalia organised for him) is ignored

[Aahz]

But alot of them do overlap in terms of characterization/skills etc. A way to solve that is separating them via location. Sending them out into the larger DCU feels like the good way to go. Batman Inc could helps the batfamily stand out from Batman's shadow.

The problem is imo bad writing and an lack of editorial coordination and not characterisation and location.

In the late 90s early 2000s you had iirc Batman, Robin, Batgirl, Catwoman, Azrael and the Birds of Prey in Gotham, and Nightwing operating near by in Blüdheaven, that was my one of the strongest eras of the franchise.

Batman Inc is imo a really bad idea, since that adds really way to many characters to the franchise.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

The problem is imo bad writing and an lack of editorial coordination and not characterisation and location.

In the late 90s early 2000s you had iirc Batman, Robin, Batgirl, Catwoman, Azrael and the Birds of Prey in Gotham, and Nightwing operating near by in Blüdheaven, that was my one of the strongest eras of the franchise.

Batman Inc is imo a really bad idea, since that adds really way to many characters to the franchise.

But they are outside of Gotham which makes them easier to manage and gives them a selling point. Which is what I'm suggesting for the Batfamily. Those characters sticking around Gotham doesn't have much appeal to me anymore.

[Restingvoice]

But alot of them do overlap in terms of characterization/skills etc.

That's only a problem if you're picking up all of them. The average person's probably only gonna pick one or two that is their favorite.

Or if they appear in the same story, usually in a crossover, and then writers feel the necessity to differentiate them when having 4 detectives or 5 martial artists make sense to cover the 3 islands plus 2 suburbs of Gotham

[TheRay]

But alot of them do overlap in terms of characterization/skills etc.

Not completely.

[marhawkman]

Since we can't have our Nightwing go back the Teen Titans since he aged out, I think it could be fun to have a Nightwing from a different Earth running around who is still a teen.
The interactions between the two Nightwings would be very intriguing.

duplicate Dicks? DO NOT WANT! I'd rather have Damian as Nightwing.