Avengers 20, we are at peak Aaron people!

[Biclopcicle]

That's not what's being said in this issue. Some people are grossly oversimplifying or exaggerating Jen's position.

She isn't saying that being attractive was "harder" than being ugly or savage. She says that there were negative aspects to the way she was perceived and regarded that Bruce was oblivious to. To say that the sexual harassment she endured was no big deal and that it didn't matter because she knew how to handle it is the kind of thing that men say to women all the time in order to diminish and belittle their suffering.

It seems like many of the complaints about this issue only confirm the points that Aaron is making.

That's not the angle I was taking. It's up to the woman and not the man to determine whether she's being harassed. That's self-evident. But that's not what's happening here. What we have here is (I think most people are hearkening back to Byrne's run) a 1990's confident, sexualized character written by a man...now 2010's character who is contradicting that 1990's characterization, also being written by a man.

I can say in this case it didn't matter because Jen routinely broke the 4th wall and we knew what she was thinking. It is absurd to equate this situation (specifically with this character) to actual harassment

[Michael Watkins]

so for clarification. this has been done so that we won't see She-Hulk as a sex symbol, right? we're just supposed to like her because she's really strong and angry? what if the appeal was her sense of humor, cleverness, and close connections to her teammates? personally, i've read better standalone She-Hulk stories. i defended the Bobillo(sp?) version to the teeth. she was definitely not a pin-up. this latest version just lacks a personality. and i'm reminded of Jen losing it and ripping Vision in half (and destroying that town during the Johns era). she vowed to never lose control again, after that.

[Jabare]

Jen's going through a story arc

[JKtheMac]

I'm not following you at all with this. How does that relate to the themes of this issue at all? She was being harassed by guys when she was a HUMAN. This issue was about her experience as She-HULK. The themeing doesn't work as well.

I'm looking at the page now. Here's the page too!



What am I missing here? It doesn't work as well if she's not She-Hulk. It just comes across as a creepy guy hitting on a normal woman instead of what She-Hulk was describing in this issue.

Perhaps you are missing the big green face and my point? I am saying that notions of identity and her sexualisation were there right from the start, you are saying they are only here because Aaron is reacting to criticism. That page proves my point.

[Prof. Warren]

Aaron went out of his way and made the Avengers interesting again for the first time in a while. The first arc was kind of so-so, but atert hat he really hit the ground running and added some nice elements to the Avengers mythos.

Yeah, Aaron's writing my favorite Avengers run in a long, long time. I love all that he's added to the book and the huge scope that he's bringing to it.

I agree that the first arc was so-so but, in light of where the book has gone since, I'd like to re-read it and see if it plays better now.

[Michael Watkins]

That's not what's being said in this issue. Some people are grossly oversimplifying or exaggerating Jen's position.

She isn't saying that being attractive was "harder" than being ugly or savage. She says that there were negative aspects to the way she was perceived and regarded that Bruce was oblivious to. To say that the sexual harassment she endured was no big deal and that it didn't matter because she knew how to handle it is the kind of thing that men say to women all the time in order to diminish and belittle their suffering.

It seems like many of the complaints about this issue only confirm the points that Aaron is making.

i wouldn't say it was no big deal. but, in this very issue, the king of the trolls flirted with her. it was like the only thing that Ulik said before being beaten unconscious. so what was Aaron's message?

Jen's going through a story arc

yeah but it's She-Thing's story arc.

[Prof. Warren]

so for clarification. this has been done so that we won't see She-Hulk as a sex symbol, right? we're just supposed to like her because she's really strong and angry? what if the appeal was her sense of humor, cleverness, and close connections to her teammates? personally, i've read better standalone She-Hulk stories. i defended the Bobillo(sp?) version to the teeth. she was definitely not a pin-up. this latest version just lacks a personality. and i'm reminded of Jen losing it and ripping Vision in half (and destroying that town during the Johns era). she vowed to never lose control again, after that.

She might have vowed that but being infused with the radiation from the Celestials has changed things for her.

Not losing control isn't that easy anymore, which is what her current arc is addressing.

[JKtheMac]

That's not what's being said in this issue. Some people are grossly oversimplifying or exaggerating Jen's position.

She isn't saying that being attractive was "harder" than being ugly or savage. She says that there were negative aspects to the way she was perceived and regarded that Bruce was oblivious to. To say that the sexual harassment she endured was no big deal and that it didn't matter because she knew how to handle it is the kind of thing that men say to women all the time in order to diminish and belittle their suffering.

It seems like many of the complaints about this issue only confirm the points that Aaron is making.

Preach girlfriend. No hang on that's appropriation. Darn it. Oh the angst of the white male!

[Prof. Warren]

i wouldn't say it was no big deal. but, in this very issue, the king of the trolls flirted with her. it was like the only thing that Ulik said before being beaten unconscious. so what was Aaron's message?

That trolls are attracted to strong women more than they want to believe, perhaps.

[Jabare]

Yeah, Aaron's writing my favorite Avengers run in a long, long time. I love all that he's added to the book and the huge scope that he's bringing to it.

I agree that the first arc was so-so but, in light of where the book has gone since, I'd like to re-read it and see if it plays better now.

not a bad idea. The first arc seemed simplistic at first but it did lay the groundwork for the proceeding arcs which have been pretty strong

[Michael Watkins]

She might have vowed that but being infused with the radiation from the Celestials has changed things for her.

Not losing control isn't that easy anymore, which is what her current arc is addressing.

eh. it'd mean more if she hadn't been fresh off of a lackluster solo series that focused on her just being a Hulk.

[Michael Watkins]

That trolls are attracted to strong women more than they want to believe, perhaps.

it's the second time that it has happened, iirc. just seems weird that she is embracing the new form because she isn't as sexualized but then is subject to sexualization by literal monsters.

[Prof. Warren]

That's not the angle I was taking. It's up to the woman and not the man to determine whether she's being harassed. That's self-evident. But that's not what's happening here. What we have here is (I think most people are hearkening back to Byrne's run) a 1990's confident, sexualized character written by a man...now 2010's character who is contradicting that 1990's characterization, also being written by a man.

I wouldn't say contradicting. I would say commenting and building on.

We're in a much different place culturally now than we were then. I don't think it's wrong of Aaron to look at Jen's history and call aspects of it into question and look at it from a perspective that wouldn't have been possible previously.

[Biclopcicle]

eh. it'd mean more if she hadn't been fresh off of a lackluster solo series that focused on her just being a Hulk.

Exactly. Apparently Aaron didn't read it either. I liked that series. It addressed changes that happened to Jen resulting from trauma of "losing Bruce and the NDE, etc. I wish they had explored Grey Hulk with Jen more.

Aaron's Jen feels more like, "hey, Ewing is doing something with Bruce, you can't have him. Use Jen instead"

[Prof. Warren]

it's the second time that it has happened, iirc. just seems weird that she is embracing the new form because she isn't as sexualized but then is subject to sexualization by literal monsters.

I would say Ulik's reaction is less about his perception of Jen as a sexual object and more about his respect for her greater strength.