IMPERIUS REX! Namor the Sub-Mariner Appreciation 2021

[Doombot]

Heh.

Must be the month for 'divided opinions' on Namor. LOL!

LOL

The only answer to the Sue nonsense is Namor to have his own ongoing with multiple love interests and a possible new great love/wife. Until then, the dead "Namor and Sue" horse will continue to get beaten.

[Doombot]

Its not really a secret, lol, I just didn't think people would want to know more but I can tell you the summary/conclusion for the entire thing is an epic high stakes underwater adventure with Namor it's center where he has to save Atlantis and the World, it includes Atlantean gods/goddesses as well as sea creatures, myths, monsters, Namor's villains and allies. It has Atlantean court intrigue and secrets. However I have outlined much of this story with all my comic research but at this point I am barely brushing through the end of the Invaders era in terms of completed writing. I have the first 2 chapters posted on Archive of Our Own, however it's basically a prelude that describes the creation of the Goddess Cleito and the Wreck of the Endurance as seen in Namor, the Sub-Mariner (1990) #52

It's titled Sub-Mariner: Ascension

I have been going through every era of Namor's life through the 80 years, including as much in canon adventures and references as possible but as you know comics are far from streamlined, so I have been doing my own revisions to have something more cohesive as well as world building Atlantis/background characters. This began as a much smaller project that kinda kept growing these last few years, I feel its because I really wanted to give Namor fans a book about Namor's whole life and then expand beyond the current canon. It's actually become quite novel length so far with chapters devoted to the romance/tragedy of Leo/Fen, and lots of character introspection, how Namor struggles with the responsibilities of the crown and his human/atlantean sides. At it's center it's a story about Namor and how he handles his own destiny and history of Atlantis, the Nexus Fragment plays a huge part as a mystical artifact as well as other Atlantean artifacts. I like to include as much canon as possible because I do enjoy Namor's stories but I just wish it was given more attention to. I hope to have this fanfiction completed in the next year or two (depends on my free time/writing speed) however I know by the end of it I may go back to do some minor changes/rewrites.

Colour me intrigued!

[Thor-El]

I don't know about that, but the body type certainly seems something that Buscema, more than Colan, I think, might have been inspired by. I don't think I've seen any of his movies. Will have to rectify that.

They are all around youtube in different resolutions. Many have very bad resolution but these are not too horrible. I haven't seen them in their entirely in years so I warn you or anyone that might look at them, they might have not aged too well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We871UsAkrg&t=1798s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-ecVZI2q-g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHbZBw1k2ZQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bj1765U5MX8

[Thor-El]

https://screenrant.com/namor-valkyri...w-team-marvel/

Well, Jason Aaron certainly knows how to make me come back to his Avengers. Even if he mistreats Namor, he is going to be an Avenger again!!! Plus Jane Foster and Thor as regulars, this is my dream cast of characters!!! I'm really in cloud nine waiting for this book. I haven't collected anything monthly since Zdarsky Invaders but this I cannot resist!

[ImperiusWrecked]

LOL

The only answer to the Sue nonsense is Namor to have his own ongoing with multiple love interests and a possible new great love/wife. Until then, the dead "Namor and Sue" horse will continue to get beaten.

Agreed!!! I would love Dorma back but I'm more than open to the idea of Namor having a new love interest.

[Oberon]

Thoughts on the recent shut down by Sue in FF " I'm married and have two kids. Men eh" Seemed boring as heck.

Hippie person of free love from ages ago. Modern Pagan with polyamourous or polysensual qualities.

As Namor is / should be basically a type of Pagan, I see multiple love interests, of varying degrees to be built into his culture, though not necessarily himself.

For what its worth on the Sue nonsense, Namor is half human so why wouldn't he be attracted to human women, and she reminds him or is the modern version of Betty Dean.

I understand that Marvel wants some things to remain consistent: Sue and Namor's status.
So it is not fan fic for me that Sue has feelings or more for Namor (and vice a versa)

It is more the idea the their love transcends romantic love at its best point. The quality of 2 worlds meeting.

Namor gets to do this so often, that it should be old, but it never quite is, even if others may not see that. Namor loves women in a way that most other heroes don't. (like a Pagan, he snickers)

I don't know that Namor would have this more abstract 'love' of humanity/the other, like Sue, but she does, because

She is the purest heart of all. (so why we'll never see her "cheat" which is a word I reject as a poly. We are not owned. Mary Shelley's mother, Mary Wollstonecraft challenged the institution of marriage in the name of "free love" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_love )

[Oberon]

A few pages back there was this art deco/noveau art that someone said was "real white art" or some such, but I felt it was more

homo-erotic, the glistening men's skin, etc.

[Oberon]

We differ. Sue calls on him because she thinks it is that serious.

[Doombot]

As Namor is / should be basically a type of Pagan, I see multiple love interests, of varying degrees to be built into his culture, though not necessarily himself.

For what its worth on the Sue nonsense, Namor is half human so why wouldn't he be attracted to human women, and she reminds him or is the modern version of Betty Dean.

If the religion of Atlantis is anything like ancient Greece and Rome, men were not to have more than one wife. Although it still sometimes happened, depending on what era, it was taboo like it it today.

No one is even hinting that Namor should not be attracted to human woman, it's that his specific infatuation with Sue Richards is utterly spent and boring, in my opinion anyway, and that the only reason it continues is a lack of creativity on Marvel's part and an inability to let things progress beyond a "status quo". Namor has had great loves, and marriages, before and after meeting Sue. Loves that were actually engaged and intimate, not unrequited immature crushes like with Sue, but writers can't seem to ever let it go. Why isn't Namor pining after Dorma or some other legitimate lost love instead of Sue? I'll tell you why, it's because this all happens in other heroes books and never in Namor's own. He's the perpetual guest star and is pigeon holed and always made to stay a certain way. Namor can never develop beyond this relationship because he's never in his own book.

As for Namor loving Sue because he's secretly still in love with Betty Dean, yeesh, that's even more messed up than just being obsessed with Sue in the first place.

A few pages back there was this art deco/noveau art that someone said was "real white art" or some such, but I felt it was more

homo-erotic, the glistening men's skin, etc.

Well J.C. Leyendecker was a gay man, but him being gay and seeing men as sexually attractive, doesn't make his art any less beautiful. Leyendecker was one of the preeminent artists of the American "Golden Age' of illustration.

The whole "very white art" or "white era" thing is supremely strange to me. This isn't "white" art, it's early 20th century American art in the Western tradition of illustration. Calling "white" art puts an unfair, almost accusatory slant on it, the same as calling it "gay" art because a gay man illustrated it. These are topics best left outside a thread discussing Namor the Sub-Mariner lol.

[ImperiusWrecked]

I honestly would love if we never talked about NamorSue again because we have literally been over this 100 times, and each time it ends up the same. I for my part do not care whom people ship with Namor, I literally would not blink an eye if someone said they Shipped Namor/Thanos, I do not care. You are entitled to your ideas and thoughts and ships just as I am entitled to dislike it.

I could make a whole case for why Jim Hammond/Namor is the first gay marvel ship and they are married husbands and the elements of them being opposites fire/water, the enemies to friends to lovers trope, I can literally pluck out comic panels and use that to my advantage and state that Namor never gives anyone a nickname like he has Jim which is "firebug" or that Namor holds Jim's friendship in high regard. However in the end that would not change the fact that Namor and Jim are not a couple, they never will be a couple, and that is totally fine. Once again I could make a case for Namor being Pansexual and pull panels to prove that however in the end it won't change that fact that Namor isn't canonically openly pansexual. We can have all the fan theories in the world but it will always be interpreted in a different way by different people including creators within Marvel.

Sue had a one time crush on Namor ages ago, she moved past it, that doesn't mean that they are in love or they are each other's greatest lost loves, or that she secretly still pines for him, it was just one plot that was dragged through the decades. Not to mention that Polyamory means that all parties are consenting and Sue having it on with Namor while Reed doesn't like that only means that it is cheating. Why isn't there a case for Namor/Reed being a couple, or that Namor/Sue/Reed love angle isn't a closed triangle where they all love each other or that Namor is part of them being swingers? If we were ONLY speaking about Namor and Sue in the 60s then in that context, yes Namor and Sue had a thing, but it was over so quickly because Sue picked Reed and married him.

Twice Namor has played cupid to their martial problems to get them back together, why would he do that if he really wanted Sue for his own?

The trouble I've seen with Fandom is they feel that only one character could ever have an impact romantically on a character and that's it when comics are literally the worst place that could be applied to since a character like Namor has had multiple love interests over multiple decades, and that could change with literally one issue if a writer chooses to have him get married for the third time to another character. Comics are not a closed novel where the only things that happen within it are what happened, there are multiple what ifs? or Alternate Universes where NamorSue has already been explored. There have also been universes where Marvel refused to let Namor be in a gay relationship even though the subtext was very clear in the pages (house of m 2015).

Basically I want to talk about Namor, not NamorSue, and I am tired of every mere mention of it in comics brings this whole topic up again. I am sorry for this little rant but I feel it's a pointless topic to go over again, since my stance against the idea of this "relationship" still being a thing is never going to change in my mind.

I would much rather Namor and Sue be friends in today's context/current titles, than see another hint of "oh NamorSue was a thing".

[ImperiusWrecked]

Speaking of Atlantean religions, or Atlantean world building in general, what are everyone's thoughts on it? What ideas would you have to change it? Whom do you consider to be important to the Atlantean Pantheon? Lemurian were seen worshipping the serpent god Set, would that have any impact on how undersea people view another undersea people's religion?

For my own answer I highly consider that Neptune, Cleito, are the Father and Mother of all Atlanteans, and that Atlanteans pray to Neptune for good fortune and favor, and they pray to Cleito for blessings and protection. I also include Evenor within that as a lesser deity as the Guardian of the past/knowledge.

[Doombot]

In my own little head cannon and stories, I'd have Namor choose Sue to be the ambassador for his newly revealed Atlantis. Her being one of the very few humans he would trust to enter the new city and represent humanity. It would also hint at and play into Sue's interest in ancient civilizations and archaeology, something I still enjoyed about her portrayal in Fantastic Four: The End.

[Iron Maiden]

https://screenrant.com/namor-valkyri...w-team-marvel/

Well, Jason Aaron certainly knows how to make me come back to his Avengers. Even if he mistreats Namor, he is going to be an Avenger again!!! Plus Jane Foster and Thor as regulars, this is my dream cast of characters!!! I'm really in cloud nine waiting for this book. I haven't collected anything monthly since Zdarsky Invaders but this I cannot resist!

I may start buying the Avengers again

[Doombot]

Speaking of Atlantean religions, or Atlantean world building in general, what are everyone's thoughts on it? What ideas would you have to change it? Whom do you consider to be important to the Atlantean Pantheon? Lemurian were seen worshipping the serpent god Set, would that have any impact on how undersea people view another undersea people's religion?

For my own answer I highly consider that Neptune, Cleito, are the Father and Mother of all Atlanteans, and that Atlanteans pray to Neptune for good fortune and favor, and they pray to Cleito for blessings and protection. I also include Evenor within that as a lesser deity as the Guardian of the past/knowledge.

The Lemurians are a bit of a head-scratcher, are they offshoots of Atlanteans? Did they have their own independent "fall" and miraculous survival as water breathers after the destruction as Lemuria? Does that mean the worshipped Set before of after the fall? The Deviant Lemurians always did as far as I know, but did the Atlantean Lemurian switch to worship of Set? Do they still? They don't seem to be an inherently evil race, so can they worship Set still? What goes on in that city exactly, do they have a current ruler?

For the Atlanteans themselves, they seem to be devout worshippers of Neptune, to what extent and their larger worldview seems to be in the dark. Do they have ancestor worship? Do they see the Kingdom of Atlantis before the fall as something positive or negative, are they seen as cursed or victims? What about the dark centuries that follow the fall?

How do they factor in Neptune with older gods and the many other sea deities, not to mention the deeper darker primordial or "outer" gods?

[ImperiusWrecked]

The Lemurians are a bit of a head-scratcher, are they offshoots of Atlanteans? Did they have their own independent "fall" and miraculous survival as water breathers after the destruction as Lemuria? Does that mean the worshipped Set before of after the fall? The Deviant Lemurians always did as far as I know, but did the Atlantean Lemurian switch to worship of Set? Do they still? They don't seem to be an inherently evil race, so can they worship Set still? What goes on in that city exactly, do they have a current ruler?

For the Atlanteans themselves, they seem to be devout worshippers of Neptune, to what extent and their larger worldview seems to be in the dark. Do they have ancestor worship? Do they see the Kingdom of Atlantis before the fall as something positive or negative, are they seen as cursed or victims? What about the dark centuries that follow the fall?

How do they factor in Neptune with older gods and the many other sea deities, not to mention the deeper darker primordial or "outer" gods?

These questions would all be great for worldbuilding Atlantis if writers ever took a chance to do so, however all we have is evidence of what was already written. I've never even seen them speak of the Fall in any way except a factual evidence, as if it was something that just happened in their past, how they feel about it is definitely something interesting to discuss/theorize.

The issue with Lemuria is we have some accounts of them being offshoot atlanteans who worshipped Set, possible that they left Atlantis/Neptune to practice their own religion, and other accounts have Atlanteans pre Fall and Lemurians at war with each other. I honestly would rather it be the former than the latter. I mean two cities/countries that have a world ending event on opposite sides/oceans of the world? it doesn't work logistically in my head.

Also another thing to discuss would be Suma-Ket who set himself up as a God King, he had successfully tricked the Atlanteans before he was locked away, whatever happened to that sect of followers because iirc he didn't do it with the serpent crown so it would have been his own charisma/words that worked against the people. Obviously there was a lot of dark magic involved as well.