ASM 73 full

[bob.schoonover]

Don't forget the Jackal is dead. Yeah, I know. But still. Slott killed him while going out of his way to establish he was in fact the original; you'd have to do another retcon, and on a very recent story. All for a character whose motivations and MO have been all over the place.

Is he dead, or did Mysterio just convince everyone he's dead?

[Webhead]

That… is true. I forgot.

And if the real, original Jackal is indeed now dead, I hope he stays that way, lol.

Actually, I was wrong. I just checked and he returned in a Marvel team-up issue, as well as in Spider-Gwen's title.

[exile001]

Don't forget the Jackal is dead. Yeah, I know. But still. Slott killed him while going out of his way to establish he was in fact the original; you'd have to do another retcon, and on a very recent story. All for a character whose motivations and MO have been all over the place.

No offense to Slott, but I always saw that as bullshit. The original Miles Warren died in Shea Stadium realising the monster he (or his alter ego) had become and choosing to save Ned Leeds.

The Jackal personality, however, had already planned for this and started cloning himself, multiple Peters, Gwens, etc, while tweaking the personalities of each clone (remove Miles' personality here, remove Jackal personality there and everything in between!).

The only true clones were OG Peter (Ben) and Gwen, the test subjects before Miles killed Anthony Serba (his lab assistant) creating the Jackal personality. After that, everything was mad experiments, tampering and changing because, y'know, the Jackal was fucking nuts. Honestly, nothing else makes any sense.

That's my read, anyway.

Plus, it's more fun that every subsequent Jackal thinks they're the "real" Miles Warren, who has actually been dead for, like, a decade at this point.

[Huntsman Spider]

No offense to Slott, but I always saw that as bullshit. The original Miles Warren died in Shea Stadium realising the monster he (or his alter ego) had become and choosing to save Ned Leeds.

The Jackal personality, however, had already planned for this and started cloning himself, multiple Peters, Gwens, etc, while tweaking the personalities of each clone (remove Miles' personality here, remove Jackal personality there and everything in between!).

The only true clones were OG Peter (Ben) and Gwen, the test subjects before Miles killed Anthony Serba (his lab assistant) creating the Jackal personality. After that, everything was mad experiments, tampering and changing because, y'know, the Jackal was fucking nuts. Honestly, nothing else makes any sense.

That's my read, anyway.

Plus, it's more fun that every subsequent Jackal thinks they're the "real" Miles Warren, who has actually been dead for, like, a decade at this point.

Yeah, that makes more sense.

[omegafix]

No offense to Slott, but I always saw that as bullshit. The original Miles Warren died in Shea Stadium realising the monster he (or his alter ego) had become and choosing to save Ned Leeds.

The Jackal personality, however, had already planned for this and started cloning himself, multiple Peters, Gwens, etc, while tweaking the personalities of each clone (remove Miles' personality here, remove Jackal personality there and everything in between!).

The only true clones were OG Peter (Ben) and Gwen, the test subjects before Miles killed Anthony Serba (his lab assistant) creating the Jackal personality. After that, everything was mad experiments, tampering and changing because, y'know, the Jackal was fucking nuts. Honestly, nothing else makes any sense.

That's my read, anyway.

Plus, it's more fun that every subsequent Jackal thinks they're the "real" Miles Warren, who has actually been dead for, like, a decade at this point.

dont forget Kaine, even though he was retconed into continuity during the 90's clone saga, he is the pre OG clone of Peter and a clone made by the true Miles Warren

[Dasklein83]

I apologize if this point has already been raised, but it just hit me like a ton of bricks. Mephisto not only took Peter’s marriage from him, he’s also more or less responsible for Gwen’s death as well. It seems pretty clear that Norman would’ve never become the Green Goblin, but for the deal Norman made with him. At this point, doesn’t the narrative require that Peter metaphorically kick his ass in some sort of capacity, or at least get a win over him like Doom did in Triumph and Torment? He’s essentially become Spider-Man’s greatest villain.

[t-spider]

I apologize if this point has already been raised, but it just hit me like a ton of bricks. Mephisto not only took Peter’s marriage from him, he’s also more or less responsible for Gwen’s death as well. It seems pretty clear that Norman would’ve never become the Green Goblin, but for the deal Norman made with him. At this point, doesn’t the narrative require that Peter metaphorically kick his ass in some sort of capacity, or at least get a win over him like Doom did in Triumph and Torment? He’s essentially become Spider-Man’s greatest villain.

Yeah, Mephisto does need his own reckoning... in fact, if I were to order the current list of people who need an ass-kicking, for me it would be...

1) Mephisto

2) Kindred

3) Norman

[Huntsman Spider]

I apologize if this point has already been raised, but it just hit me like a ton of bricks. Mephisto not only took Peter’s marriage from him, he’s also more or less responsible for Gwen’s death as well. It seems pretty clear that Norman would’ve never become the Green Goblin, but for the deal Norman made with him. At this point, doesn’t the narrative require that Peter metaphorically kick his ass in some sort of capacity, or at least get a win over him like Doom did in Triumph and Torment? He’s essentially become Spider-Man’s greatest villain.

Hmm, maybe, though I would argue Norman becoming the Green Goblin was still down to the core of Norman's character as a selfish man willing to put his own ambition and pride above all else, morality, sanity, and humanity be damned. Mephisto might have given him a little help along the way, but Norman wouldn't have become what he was if he didn't have it in him all along. That said, one could argue that Mephisto was really the reason Norman came back from the dead after "The Night Gwen Stacy Died," much less succeeded in fooling the public into believing his lies about not being the Green Goblin or about being a reformed citizen. The latter, at least, would make slightly more sense than people just unquestioningly buying his act because they were plain gullible.

[Spiderfan001]

Hmm, maybe, though I would argue Norman becoming the Green Goblin was still down to the core of Norman's character as a selfish man willing to put his own ambition and pride above all else, morality, sanity, and humanity be damned. Mephisto might have given him a little help along the way, but Norman wouldn't have become what he was if he didn't have it in him all along. That said, one could argue that Mephisto was really the reason Norman came back from the dead after "The Night Gwen Stacy Died," much less succeeded in fooling the public into believing his lies about not being the Green Goblin or about being a reformed citizen. The latter, at least, would make slightly more sense than people just unquestioningly buying his act because they were plain gullible.

Agreed, saying Norman is responsible for Goblin is undermining Norman's horrible nature.If anything he's now a worse person that he was before

[bob.schoonover]

Hmm, maybe, though I would argue Norman becoming the Green Goblin was still down to the core of Norman's character as a selfish man willing to put his own ambition and pride above all else, morality, sanity, and humanity be damned. Mephisto might have given him a little help along the way, but Norman wouldn't have become what he was if he didn't have it in him all along. That said, one could argue that Mephisto was really the reason Norman came back from the dead after "The Night Gwen Stacy Died," much less succeeded in fooling the public into believing his lies about not being the Green Goblin or about being a reformed citizen. The latter, at least, would make slightly more sense than people just unquestioningly buying his act because they were plain gullible.

I don't think Spencer's story implies any particular motive by Mephisto as to why he made the deal with Norman (other than, you know, he's the devil, and keeping in mind we haven't read ASM 74 yet which could explain something), so it remains an open possibility that someone someday decides to write a story that backfills the motive to all be part of a plan to screw with Peter. Based on what we have on the page now, no Mephisto is not responsible for Gwen's death (although he has some culpability), but that doesn't mean he couldn't be.

As a quick example, let's say we get a big Jackal story for ASM 950 where we find out Miles Warren also made a deal with Mephisto to help him perfect his clone technology (which somehow can pull memories from DNA, so, sure) - then we find out the Norman and Miles deals were specifically meant to kill Gwen and create her clone, so that the Kindred vessels would be achievable by Harry in the future. That's entirely consistent with the story (as we know it so far) and somehow less convoluted than ASM 73's explanation for Sins Past. Plus, it's a perfectly good out to "explain" Ben's characterization during Clone Conspiracy.

[exile001]

dont forget Kaine, even though he was retconed into continuity during the 90's clone saga, he is the pre OG clone of Peter and a clone made by the true Miles Warren

Good point, and I think there was a pre-Gwen clone clone too. So proof of concept clones, then "OG" clones, then all the nonsense.

[IamnotJudasTraveller]

No offense to Slott, but I always saw that as bullshit.

That much Slott just inherited though, right? They established in the Osborn Journal as the Clone Saga wrapped up that the Jackal dead in the stadium was a clone, and then the real Jackal showed up to leave Ben in a half-dead state.

It's funny because then the Clone Saga treated "Joker" Jackal as the real deal for most of the time, but during everyone's favorite arc (Maximum Clonage) he literally referred to himself as a clone when Spidercide wipes out an entire city with some virus.

[bob.schoonover]

That much Slott just inherited though, right? They established in the Osborn Journal as the Clone Saga wrapped up that the Jackal dead in the stadium was a clone, and then the real Jackal showed up to leave Ben in a half-dead state.

It's funny because then the Clone Saga treated "Joker" Jackal as the real deal for most of the time, but during everyone's favorite arc (Maximum Clonage) he literally referred to himself as a clone when Spidercide wipes out an entire city with some virus.

Man, I really need to re-read the Clone Saga again. So much good stuff, plus Maximum Clonage

[fin5]

I read it and loved it.I heard Leagcy of Evil ties into it. was published in 1996 during the clone saga.I don't think the writers new about it way back then I have all the tpb of the clone saga but for some reason didn't hear about legacy of evil

[Dzika_Sowa]

Is there any particular reason for Mephisto to want Harry's soul, or Norman to become Green Goblin? I've heard, that Mephisto is becoming an adversary for the Avengers of something? Maybe he wanted to "recruit" people in power, like Norman / Goblin but it accidentally created Norman's war with Spider-Man, so the whole OMD and marriage was just a not so obvious way to mess with Peter...