Wanda Maximoff: Scarlet Witch Appreciation 2020

[Ferro]

Why are you posting here? You hate Wanda and have been trolling any thread with her in it.

I'm confused, I thought you hated Wanda. Every post of yours I've seen has been about trashing her or her relationship with Billy.

Because I really enjoy generic's posts and I came across a particular one i especially enjoyed as I browsed the forums bored, they are always well written, well composed and I always apreciate them, and I completly agree with their points expressed in said post, they put it into words much better than I could.

Even If we share difrent points doesn't stop me from liking them as a poster.

I don't understand what's so confusing about that.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Because I really enjoy generic's posts and I came across a particular one i especially enjoyed as I browsed the forums bored, they are always well written, well composed and I always apreciate them, and I completly agree with their points expressed in said post, they put it into words much better than I could.

Even If we share difrent points doesn't stop me from liking them as a poster.

I don't understand what's so confusing about that.

It's not about what you think of Generic as a poster, and it's not a mystery as to why that is. Maybe you can enlighten us about your opinions on Wanda?

[Ferro]

It's not about what you think of Generic as a poster, and it's not a mystery as to why that is. Maybe you can enlighten us about your opinions on Wanda?

I don't particulary understand the need to escalate when all I did was compliment someone? And my opinions are not welcome in a thread that is meant to apreciate the character, It would be disrespectfull and probably get me rightfully banned as apreciation threads are meant for positive discussion, doesn't mean I can't interact with it on a respectfull fashion and the poster's in it.

[Steel Inquisitor]

Show me the plenty, because Marvel was content to only mention it at times. And not really have her dealing with the issues as much as other mutants. It was brought up very rarely. In her early years it was used only to explain her powers. Nothing more.

She's gone through enough to have an opinion on mutants and it has been a crucial part of her life growing up. Why is she held to a higher standard then other mutants? Because she's stuck in the Avengers section, they have their own themes to explore - it's not that she doesn't care about mutants plight. In the early years it was the reason for why she joined the Brotherhood, and being in that group changed her forever. She still bares the scars from that to this day. Conflating Wanda's experiences being a mutant just because that's how she got her powers is incredibly dismissive of the character's experiences.

I said, 'They'd have to have pulled her away from that years ago and had her serve the mutant cause for a while before it'd make sense for that to be so important. Marvel obviously didn't do that. And even after M-day didn't have her do that to make up for things done'

Except for the times when she did, like offering herself to the X-men when they were itching to kill her on the spot in Children's Crusade, for example. And offering to repower mutants. Marvel did her a disservice but not doing more with her on this subject except this is being reacted to as though she did absolutely nothing to redemption herself, which is false.

Which means they didn't have a lot of that featured with her dealing with discrimination. A couple times is it. Wanda didn't live out her life dealing with things on the level that other mutants had to deal with it. I never said she didn't do everything I would have liked. I am saying Marvel didn't have her do everything she'd have liked. That she stated in Children's Crusade. Wanda didn't get the redemption that she mentioned. She didn't really get redemption done well at all. Pretending that she did isn't gonna make any of it any better. She got screwed over. Stating it is just stating truth. Sorry that you have a problem with that.

Wanda got her life destroyed being a mutant, since when is that not enough for being oppressed or discriminated against? I agree they should have had her do more but that's not on the character, that's on Marvel and this dismisses what she's actually done while ignoring the backlash she's got from the X-men as though what they did to her was right. I'm not pretending anything, I'm juts giving her more credit that she deserves. Every time she does try the X-men try to sabotage her, so it's not like it was easy. You didn't explain the "sides," which is heavily implied to be Avengers vs X-men, but this is exclusive to Wanda.

You have in several conversations gotten on my case about something you misread. Even going as far as to accuse me of not being as good a fan of Wanda as you are. You now are pretending I don't like the Avengers when I've been a dedicated reader for close to 30 years. Check your gatekeeping.

Which happens to everyone. Normally I don't do this but when a Wanda fan refuses to stand up for her when people want her dead and who go over the top in their vengeance as if she personally hurt them I start to question things. I'm not pretending anything, and this isn't about what you read it's how a person acts. Now you care about gatekeeping?

And they never did milk that relationship because Wanda was very separate from all of that. So it's unlikely to happen.

Yes? That was what I wanted to change.

It's like someone that dedicates all their life to dealing with discrimination and then someone that does it sometimes. There's an obvious difference. But you have a vested interest in her being a mutant and Mags' kid. So you are trying to pretend there is more there than there was.

So she can only be a "real" mutant advocate if she joins the X-men, otherwise she's just faking it. My opinion on Magneto's relationship with Wanda is a non sequitur and alters what my opinion really is on this subject which verges on gaslighting to appear like your argument has the moral high ground.

Her house being burned down and her being chased by mutant haters are the two situations I was referring to. It's very few situations in her life. Her entire 55 years. And UA was a garbage mishandling of the character and her redemption. It ended up changing her personality completely to make her someone hated so it justified Rogue murdering her. The planet she created didn't do what she had intended. Which was originally go around to help repower mutants, which is what Marvel should have let happen. But they should not have let M-day happen to begin with. So that isn't a great example of her handling mutant issues. Because it was so botched.

Which are minor parts of her life, in your opinion? I disagree. She's already known for her psychological issues from the troubles she's had but you want to add onto that when many, many X-men have gone through much more with far less psychological barriers affecting their life? How is this fair?
In Uncanny Avengers she was openly showing remorse over what she did. Wait, you think Remender drastically changed her in UA? I've read that run, Remender gets the character and the realistic weight of what M-day did to her psyche. It was a continuation from Children's Crusade in that respect. I agree Marvel should have done more but where's the anger at the X-men for stopping her doing that? And trying to kill her and isolate her from her friends? Except you're not giving Marvel or her any credit for the things she did right after M-Day.

What are the various times? She has not. She's had a couple moments and her powers being mentioned being mutant. She had one other moment of being chased down when a sentinel thought she was Jean. Most of her time was as an Avenger and not really dealing with mutant stories.

How about when she was in the Brotherhood, House of M, Darker Than Red, Ragnarok Now and Children's Crusade. That she hasn't had that as the focus of her life isn't the same as her not caring about being a mutant or not being affected by it.

And I feel the need to leave the disclaimer before this is the next thing that gets misinterpreted. Wanda doesn't need to be the savior of mutants and having spent lots of time with mutants and mutant issues to be a good character, or even good. It's just not something that happened. Because of being an Avenger, most of her stories revolved around that. It's just a fact about her, and not a negative. There are plenty of characters handling the every day struggle. It doesn't have to be Wanda. And because she couldn't be there, it's good that she's been separated from it.

The "misinterpretation" angle would have worked on me in the past, not anymore. None of this explains what she must do to gain your favour. No, to Wanda M-Day wasn't just a "fact" in her life, more than one story has gone into this development. Her being an Avenger has nothing to do with how she feels about M-day, that's moving the goal posts. Clearly it isn't "good" because you're not getting how this emotionally effected Wanda or that she has tried redeeming herself for it but it falls on deaf ears.

Again, what are your opinions about other mutants joining the Avengers? Why is this question so hard to get an answer to?

[Sutekh]

I don't particulary understand the need to escalate when all I did was compliment someone? And my opinions are not welcome in a thread that is meant to apreciate the character, It would be disrespectfull and probably get me rightfully banned as apreciation threads are meant for positive discussion, doesn't mean I can't interact with it on a respectfull fashion and the poster's in it.

Thank you for not rising to the bait and bringing unwelcome discourse to the appreciation thread.

[Journey]

I'm confused, I thought you hated Wanda. Every post of yours I've seen has been about trashing her or her relationship with Billy.

She is kind of a bad mom in all fairness. Reservations about the kids aside, it's really bad that they had her go through all this **** due to losing her kids. Their back in a way she claims them and barely talks to them, the writing for her as a mother is terrible, hopefully when WandaVision comes out and the inevitable mini comic to go with it she spends more time with her kids Vision too.

[Cruelrain]

She is kind of a bad mom in all fairness. Reservations about the kids aside, it's really bad that they had her go through all this **** due to losing her kids. Their back in a way she claims them and barely talks to them, the writing for her as a mother is terrible, hopefully when WandaVision comes out and the inevitable mini comic to go with it she spends more time with her kids Vision too.

She was not a bad mom before all the bad writing that turned her into an inestable person, even in her worst and more inestable moments (thanks to the writers) she never wanted to harm her childrens. Wiccan is not even her real son, he just has the soul or something from the real Billy that she gave birth casting a spell using the Salem's Seven power and then reconnected into being parts of the soul of the demon Mephisto.

[Journey]

She was not a bad mom before all the bad writing that turned her into an inestable person, even in her worst and more inestable moments (thanks to writers) she never wanted to harm her childrens. Wiccan is not even her real son, he just has the soul or something from the real Billy that she gave birth casting a spell using the Salen 7 power and then reconnected into being parts of the soul of the demon Mephisto.

Yes I understand all that and again I get that she has reservations about Billy and Tommy that's natural. However she claims them as her kids, it be different if she had denied them. Since she doesn't again it's just a really bad look, very mom who gave up kids, who got adopted and is in out their lives vibes. Just not a good look is all I'm saying and it's canon so yeah....

[Sutekh]

She is kind of a bad mom in all fairness. Reservations about the kids aside, it's really bad that they had her go through all this **** due to losing her kids. Their back in a way she claims them and barely talks to them, the writing for her as a mother is terrible, hopefully when WandaVision comes out and the inevitable mini comic to go with it she spends more time with her kids Vision too.

There's a certain wonkiness there, because Billy, in particular, already *has* parents, and siblings, and literally never has anything to do with them either, which I don't take as an indicator that Billy is a bad son, so much as the writers don't want to write scenes of him keeping up with his birth-family *or* with Wanda. Any place where Billy or Wanda appear, there are usually a half-dozen other characters to service, and nobody wants to 'waste page space' on an appearance by some other related characters who aren't relevant to the story (it's even a writing trope, in that, like Chekov's gun, a writer shouldn't introduce Billy in a Wanda story (or vice versa) if Billy's not got an important role in said story, otherwise, he's just extraneous, particularly in a story that has to be told in such a limited space as a 20-ish page monthly comic book, with a half-dozen cast-members to show).

In the case of Tommy, who seems to have nobody in his life, it's more odd that he's not shown interacting more with Wanda *or* with Billy, for that matter, and I suspect that, again, it's all meta, and has nothing to do with them all being 'bad family,' so much as the writers not wanting to bog down whatever story they are telling by introducing this other guy.

It's definitely the sort of thing that should be explored more in a Wanda solo. It's entirely possible they could address the notion that Wanda is actually profoundly uncomfortable with the idea of having grown kids, after accepting for so long that she would not be a mother, or even is punishing herself for having 'not been there for them' even though she had no knowledge that they even existed (people aren't always reasonable about that sort of thing). Or maybe she unconsciously resents that she missed their formative years, feeling that she had them stolen from her, and has awkward feelings about that, since her anger and frustration has nowhere to go, since there's no one to blame for the weirdness of the situation (other than, perhaps, herself, for ever wishing up a happy normal family straight out of a Norman Rockwell, and resenting how it all feels like a naive dream, and yet is her happiest memory?).

[GenericUsername]

She's gone through enough to have an opinion on mutants and it has been a crucial part of her life growing up. Why is she held to a higher standard then other mutants? Because she's stuck in the Avengers section, they have their own themes to explore - it's not that she doesn't care about mutants plight. In the early years it was the reason for why she joined the Brotherhood, and being in that group changed her forever. She still bares the scars from that to this day. Conflating Wanda's experiences being a mutant just because that's how she got her powers is incredibly dismissive of the character's experiences.



Except for the times when she did, like offering herself to the X-men when they were itching to kill her on the spot in Children's Crusade, for example. And offering to repower mutants. Marvel did her a disservice but not doing more with her on this subject except this is being reacted to as though she did absolutely nothing to redemption herself, which is false.



Wanda got her life destroyed being a mutant, since when is that not enough for being oppressed or discriminated against? I agree they should have had her do more but that's not on the character, that's on Marvel and this dismisses what she's actually done while ignoring the backlash she's got from the X-men as though what they did to her was right. I'm not pretending anything, I'm juts giving her more credit that she deserves. Every time she does try the X-men try to sabotage her, so it's not like it was easy. You didn't explain the "sides," which is heavily implied to be Avengers vs X-men, but this is exclusive to Wanda.



Which happens to everyone. Normally I don't do this but when a Wanda fan refuses to stand up for her when people want her dead and who go over the top in their vengeance as if she personally hurt them I start to question things. I'm not pretending anything, and this isn't about what you read it's how a person acts. Now you care about gatekeeping?



Yes? That was what I wanted to change.



So she can only be a "real" mutant advocate if she joins the X-men, otherwise she's just faking it. My opinion on Magneto's relationship with Wanda is a non sequitur and alters what my opinion really is on this subject which verges on gaslighting to appear like your argument has the moral high ground.



Which are minor parts of her life, in your opinion? I disagree. She's already known for her psychological issues from the troubles she's had but you want to add onto that when many, many X-men have gone through much more with far less psychological barriers affecting their life? How is this fair?
In Uncanny Avengers she was openly showing remorse over what she did. Wait, you think Remender drastically changed her in UA? I've read that run, Remender gets the character and the realistic weight of what M-day did to her psyche. It was a continuation from Children's Crusade in that respect. I agree Marvel should have done more but where's the anger at the X-men for stopping her doing that? And trying to kill her and isolate her from her friends? Except you're not giving Marvel or her any credit for the things she did right after M-Day.



How about when she was in the Brotherhood, House of M, Darker Than Red, Ragnarok Now and Children's Crusade. That she hasn't had that as the focus of her life isn't the same as her not caring about being a mutant or not being affected by it.



The "misinterpretation" angle would have worked on me in the past, not anymore. None of this explains what she must do to gain your favour. No, to Wanda M-Day wasn't just a "fact" in her life, more than one story has gone into this development. Her being an Avenger has nothing to do with how she feels about M-day, that's moving the goal posts. Clearly it isn't "good" because you're not getting how this emotionally effected Wanda or that she has tried redeeming herself for it but it falls on deaf ears.

Again, what are your opinions about other mutants joining the Avengers? Why is this question so hard to get an answer to?

I never said that she didn't do enough or wasn't discriminated against. It also isn't "my opinion" that the mutant cause wasn't a focus in her life. You are exaggerating things to make it seem like there was more there than there was. And you are looking to take offense because all it is, is that you want her to have more in an arena she was never really in. You stretch out references that didn't really have much there to make it seem like there was stuff there that wasn't.

No one is gaslighting you. You read everyone's posts wrong. I don't know it it's on purpose or for bait. Maybe you are just bored. But you tried to accuse X-fans of racism when none of them stated anything close to that.

You then try to accuse me of sticking Wanda only in the Avengers section? I don't write her. Also, wtf does now I care about gatekeeping mean? This thread was much friendlier before you started causing trouble here.

People have stopped arguing about AD/HoM because we've been doing it for years on this board literally. Some of us have been here before the forum reboot. It never changed anyone's opinion.

Wanda already has my favor and doesn't have to be mutant nor Mags' kid to have it. And I'm not talking about how it affected her or her emotions or saying it's a negative about her. I'm saying that the stories about her being a mutant are the exception and not the rule. Which is true. Don't like it? You don't have to, but arguing with me about it isn't gonna change it.

I'm fine with where she's at because it separates her from M-day and from Mags who was truly a terrible father. I want her separated from that abuse. That isn't gonna change the more you try to exaggerate her time having mutant related stories to fit your fanon.

Nothing that any other mutant has done on or off the Avengers has anything to do with Wanda. Nor does it compare to her amount of stories or their's. Some of them have more time in mutant stories than Wanda does, and far less time on the Avengers by far. And guess what? Doesn't make them bad characters!

So no, you aren't getting a direct answer because has NOTHING to do with Wanda.

[Cruelrain]

Yes I understand all that and again I get that she has reservations about Billy and Tommy that's natural. However she claims them as her kids, it be different if she had denied them. Since she doesn't again it's just a really bad look, very mom who gave up kids, who got adopted and is in out their lives vines. Just not a good look is all I'm saying and it's canon so yeah....

Well, Wiccan and Wanda have a good relationship, i remember her healing him and giving him an advice on a bullying situation, the most recently interaction was during Civil War II, when all the Marvel mages send away that Celestial.

It's more like Marvel is not interested in writing about their relationship than anything IMO.

[GenericUsername]

She is kind of a bad mom in all fairness. Reservations about the kids aside, it's really bad that they had her go through all this **** due to losing her kids. Their back in a way she claims them and barely talks to them, the writing for her as a mother is terrible, hopefully when WandaVision comes out and the inevitable mini comic to go with it she spends more time with her kids Vision too.

Billy and Tommy are not her real kids. They are someone else's. They just got her kids' soul implants so it's a weird situation.

She she's not there because they aren't really her's. Her sons are still dead.

[GenericUsername]

I don't particulary understand the need to escalate when all I did was compliment someone? And my opinions are not welcome in a thread that is meant to apreciate the character, It would be disrespectfull and probably get me rightfully banned as apreciation threads are meant for positive discussion, doesn't mean I can't interact with it on a respectfull fashion and the poster's in it.

Don't worry you did nothing wrong.

[GenericUsername]

Yes I understand all that and again I get that she has reservations about Billy and Tommy that's natural. However she claims them as her kids, it be different if she had denied them. Since she doesn't again it's just a really bad look, very mom who gave up kids, who got adopted and is in out their lives vines. Just not a good look is all I'm saying and it's canon so yeah....

It's more like she feels responsible for them getting her kids souls. So they have something from her kids. But it's similar to someone else's kid getting an organ transplant.

Tommy's real parents are the ones that are really bad. They had the opportunity to be there for him and really were not. And they are his real parents. Billy has amazing parents and had a great upbringing.

By the time Wanda knew that her spell had worked (sort of in a monkey paw type way) they were already in their late teens. So they are having mostly their own lives now and are adults now.

I wish she got the chance to raise her real kids but she really did not.

[Albert1981]

Well, Wiccan and Wanda have a good relationship, i remember her healing him and giving him an advice on a bullying situation, the most recently interaction was during Civil War II, when all the Marvel mages send away that Celestial.

It's more like Marvel is not interested in writing about their relationship than anything IMO.

I feel it's almost impossible to. The boys' origin story is just WAY too convoluted. How can you be a mom to kids who already have parents and were raised by them to adolescence? I think creators at Marvel just can't do anything there. In order for her to be a mother, she has to have a closer and more REALISTIC connection to them. That's why in WandaVision I have a feeling they will do away with the whole reincarnation thing because television audiences will think it is just as silly as comic book readers think it is.