Controversial Batfamily Opinions

[Tzigone]

Damians official Height is 4'6'', and that fits with how he is usually drawn, thats roughly the average height of a 10 year old, and about 8 inch shorter than an average 13 year old.
It is of cause possible that Damian might just hit puberty extremely late, but if his development is otherwise normal he would probably end up beeing something like 5'0'' as an adult.

And when it come to Tim and his generation, they are all 16 or 17, most people are pretty close to their final height at this age.

I agree. Yes, occasionally someone has a late growth spurt after 18, but it's not common (and more likely in boys than girls, of course, because they start and finish puberty/adolescence later) to gain more than a couple inches then. And Damian is really an issue. They really didn't have him grow between 10 and 13 and, IMO, that's when you take kid to the doctor to make sure everything is alright.

Kon makes more sense if they'd never had him get as tall as Supes in adulthood. Initally, he wasn't actually a clone of Superman, and we didn't know his human donor or how tall he was. Even with Lex and Clark contributing the DNA, sometimes kids just turn out shorter than their parents. I could make an exception for an atypical late growth spurt, if it didn't happen to so many characters.

[Aahz]

Kon makes more sense if they'd never had him get as tall as Supes in adulthood. Initally, he wasn't actually a clone of Superman, and we didn't know his human donor or how tall he was. Even with Lex and Clark contributing the DNA, sometimes kids just turn out shorter than their parents. I could make an exception for an atypical late growth spurt, if it didn't happen to so many characters.

The thing with Kon is just that he seems supposed to be tallest guy of the YJ4, so it is somehow odd that he is still that short in comparison to adult characters.

[Tzigone]

The thing with Kon is just that he seems supposed to be tallest guy of the YJ4, so it is somehow odd that he is still that short in comparison to adult characters.

Probably comes down the variable height thing. People shrink or grow depending on who they are around or the emotional tone of the scene (growing to dominate villains, shrinking when with senior figures or being beaten in battle, etc.).

[dietrich]

I agree. Yes, occasionally someone has a late growth spurt after 18, but it's not common (and more likely in boys than girls, of course, because they start and finish puberty/adolescence later) to gain more than a couple inches then. And Damian is really an issue. They really didn't have him grow between 10 and 13 and, IMO, that's when you take kid to the doctor to make sure everything is alright.

Kon makes more sense if they'd never had him get as tall as Supes in adulthood. Initally, he wasn't actually a clone of Superman, and we didn't know his human donor or how tall he was. Even with Lex and Clark contributing the DNA, sometimes kids just turn out shorter than their parents. I could make an exception for an atypical late growth spurt, if it didn't happen to so many characters.

bruce said he was similar height to Damian when he was his age so there's an in story explanation.

[dietrich]

I wondering if we will see at some point a tiny adult Damian

It'd be funny to see Damian as a 5'0 batman trying to be intimidating

[Tzigone]

bruce said he was similar height to Damian when he was his age so there's an in story explanation.

Okay, but it's still pretty weak, IMO. Just doesn't seem to be a reason that Damian shouldn't have been allowed to grow. Also now wondering how many flashbacks we've actually seen to Bruce that age (only remember him being Robin in old days, which I wouldn't count, anyway).

[Aahz]

Okay, but it's still pretty weak, IMO. Just doesn't seem to be a reason that Damian shouldn't have been allowed to grow. Also now wondering how many flashbacks we've actually seen to Bruce that age (only remember him being Robin in old days, which I wouldn't count, anyway).

Not many, most of the flaschback are either set around the time his parents died (when he was 8-10 years old) or he travels the word to become Batman (so probably age 18-25 ?).
If we look at the older stuff apart from the mentioned Robin story, most of the other flashback stories usually have him meet Superboy (in this case Clark) somehow and have him in his late teens (16 or 17).

Btw, they do the same age in live action with the actors they chose to play Bruce and Selina in Gotham.

[dietrich]

Okay, but it's still pretty weak, IMO. Just doesn't seem to be a reason that Damian shouldn't have been allowed to grow. Also now wondering how many flashbacks we've actually seen to Bruce that age (only remember him being Robin in old days, which I wouldn't count, anyway).

Well he doesn't grow because Tim doesn't grow either until Tim grows Damian can't since he is the baby. I don't mind damian being short. I think it's cute.

[Aahz]

I don't mind damian being short. I think it's cute.

I have actually a bigger problem with Damian bigger problem with him being 13 now. Since he is exactly like he was at 10, which makes ageing him up by 3 years kind of pointless.

[Starter Set]

I prefer the old Catwoman costume and hairstyle.

Attachment 80801

That's too controversial for me.

[Tzigone]

Been reading old messages and I saw someone mention not liking Kate as Bruce's cousin. Never thought about it, but I admit, I don't think her being related adds anything meaningful to the character.

I actually have another controversial (or perhaps just flatly unpopular) opinion on Kate that I didn't think to mention because I don't feel strongly about it or think about Kate much. Because of the opinion.

One of the first things I read about Kate, other than her being a lesbian, is that Batwoman was cool for being more equal to Batman than his other family associates, she never worked for him and was more stand-on-her-own. Sounded cool to me So I started with 52. I enjoyed the dynamic with Montoya a lot and the character seemed interesting.

Then I went to Detective Comics (skipping all of Final Crisis, which may have had important bits, I admit), and it was pretty much all downhill from there to me, for the very limited amount I read. Characters often get many aspects added or even change a good bit when they go from guest to star of their own story, and sometimes I like the new bits and sometimes I don't, and in this one I did not.

I liked the wig, and I liked her DADT story. But there was so much I didn't like. Little things, like not having the love interest I already liked (and I just think of Maggie in Metropolis) and the wicked stepmother irked. Especially stepmom being unlikable. I'd think I'd have rather had Kate never warm up to her for no reason (if you wanted friction) even though she was a likable woman than what we got. Love Dana as Tim's stepmom.

But first and foremost, I really didn’t like how her father seemed to be her boss in Detective Comics. I’d much rather her be on her own or have an assistant or even a partner that she didn’t call “sir” - someone not her boss, not her father, not with any sort of authority (and who couldn’t cut off her funds). I felt like she was a subordinate in her own story, and that was a buzzkill for me. I mean, stories about subordinates can be good, but that’s not what I wanted for her, especially after Dad wasn’t shown in that role at first. People on tumblr disagreed with me "he's her Alfred," they said. Alfred didn't hold purse strings, arrange training, or call the shots. He had no authority over Bruce in any context (especially since their adult relationship was largely established before Alfred as his guardian was part of the story). So, a strong female character not subordinate to Batman is just subordinate to another man. If I hadn't read those explicit "like Batman" equivalencies of her, I'd probably not have disliked this so much. Doesn't really matter much whether or not it changed later; I wasn't enjoying reading it.

I didn't like Bette as a victim - I liked her as a hero in her own right, too.

The evil twin (brainwashed into evil, but still) clinched it for me. I've even started a thread to express my hatred of evil siblings. I tuned out only a few issues later, and have only read Kate when she crosses over with others. So I don't think of her much, and didn't even think to include her here. So for me, Kate is a character that could have been awesome, but wasn't. I'm not going to keep reading comics I don't enjoy (learned that lesson long ago with a show I thought I had to get better again, but instead crashed and burned in awfulness), so I stopped. If I was really into the character earlier, I'd pick it up again later if I heard it got good, but I only just met her, and I don't think the elements I most disliked (father and sister) were ever going to go away, since they're too tied into origin now.

Oh yeah, and the she's-totally-not-dead-ending with Beth was weak.

[Caivu]

and the wicked stepmother irked. Especially stepmom being unlikable. I'd think I'd have rather had Kate never warm up to her for no reason (if you wanted friction) even though she was a likable woman than what we got.

Catherine's not wicked, and having Kate dislike her for no reason at all would be unrealistic; that's not how people behave. Kate doesn't even dislike her, really, she just enjoys irritating her.

But first and foremost, I really didn’t like how her father seemed to be her boss in Detective Comics. I’d much rather her be on her own or have an assistant or even a partner that she didn’t call “sir” - someone not her boss, not her father, not with any sort of authority (and who couldn’t cut off her funds).

Jacob's not her boss. She calls him "sir" because it's a term of respect, and she respects him. He is her father, after all, and an accomplished Colonel to boot; even if Kate had stayed in the Army, he'd still outrank her, and actually would be her boss (of a sort).

He also doesn't control her funds. No offense, but your interpretation of both characters is skewed. One of the major themes of Batwoman as a character is that being alone is detrimental to her.

So, a strong female character not subordinate to Batman is just subordinate to another man.

Being subordinate to someone doesn't indicate weakness. Like... wow.

Oh yeah, and the she's-totally-not-dead-ending with Beth was weak.

Even though they set it up over two years in advance?

[Tzigone]

Catherine's not wicked

Earliest things we see in Detective Comics (that I recall - it's been a while since I read, so I may misremember) are her hanging out with snotty friends who insult her ring, and then her problems with Kate's evening wear - both of which surely seemed to be setting her up as unlikeable.

He also doesn't control her funds. No offense, but your interpretation of both characters is skewed. One of the major themes of Batwoman as a character is that being alone is detrimental to her.

No, my interpretation is different than yours. And that's a problem to me. And with funds, I'm talking about vigilante funds, not living funds. He outfits her, he sets up her headquarters, etc. I assumed he paid for it (or obtained it from his sources). I like people around. I like a supporting cast. I didn't like that he held the strings and he made so many of the decision and got the supplies, etc. It's been a while, but didn't he ever arrange her training instead of her finding her own teachers?

Being subordinate to someone doesn't indicate weakness. Like... wow.

I'm not talking about weakness (I don't think I ever used that word for her character, only a plot device) - I'm talking about equal footing with Batman (which was what I'd read about), and she wasn't that. Batman is the undisputed boss of himself. Independent. No matter how much anyone else doesn't like it. His money, his cave, his supplies, his tech, his rules. She isn't that (at least in early issues). Does she have to be? No. But it's not what I was expecting, and was a disappointment. Like I said, if I'd never read that article (blog post, something), I'd likely have felt differently. But I did, and I felt the way I felt.

And later didn't he even do some stupid "test" (one of the things most loathe that Batman does to his proteges-he-certainly-doesn't-see-as-equals)?

and an accomplished Colonel to boot; even if Kate had stayed in the Army, he'd still outrank her, and actually would be her boss (of a sort).

Which is kind of the problem to me. I didn't want her to have a boss-figure. That her primary supporting hero in vigilante-dom is that means she's not in the same status (boss of the group or even completely standalone hero or team hero) that Batman is. Which would not have been an issue if my intro into of the idea the character (and reason for reading) is that she wasn't like his proteges. But she is, just to another person. Someone else sets up her training, gives her her costume, provides her with supplies, and tests her. Heck Batgirl was more in control of her own vigilante setup when she was created than that.

Even though they set it up over two years in advance?

I mean ever trying to make it look like she's dead (to other characters, even) was weak. Nobody buys it, it's old and tired. I'm as tired of fake deaths as I am of deaths and resurrections.

[Caivu]

Earliest things we see in Detective Comics (that I recall - it's been a while since I read, so I may misremember) are her hanging out with snotty friends who insult her ring, and then her problems with Kate's evening wear - both of which surely seemed to be setting her up as unlikeable.

Unlikable =/= wicked. She's at worst stuffy and old-fashioned. Heck, Catherine actually likes Kate a lot.

No, my interpretation is different than yours. Jacob said he'd put a stop to the whole vigilante thing - that is definitely him having control over her. And that's a problem to me.

Yes, it's different, but it's also wrong because it's not supported by the text. This is what you have a problem with:

Jacob said he'd put a stop to the whole vigilante thing - that is definitely him having control over her.

Think about this for a moment.

Jacob is her father. And he wants to stop her from doing something incredibly dangerous that, at the time, she was not trained for, because he has already lost one of his daughters.

Like... do you genuinely take issue with that? That a father wants to protect his only living daughter from very reasonable danger?

And that point becomes moot anyway once Jacob sees how serious she is about it.

And with funds, I'm talking about vigilante funds, not living funds. He outfits her, he sets up her headquarters, etc. I assumed he paid for it (or obtained it from his sources).

He does do that. But when Kate breaks off ties with him, her operations don't shut down, because she has her own income. Even before becoming Batwoman, she was buying weapons and gear off the black market, for instance, and that's not anywhere in the neighborhood of cheap.

And later didn't he even do some stupid "test" (one of the things most loathe that Batman does to his proteges-he-certainly-doesn't-see-as-equals)?

Jacob? Well, technically, Kate's entire training was a test that Jacob designed specifically to be as difficult as possible to make her quit. But her final mission is where he tested her to make sure she would never kill in anger. That's hardly stupid; that's something you absolutely want to make sure someone is capable of if they're going to be working as a vigilante in Gotham, of all places.

Which is kind of the problem to me. I didn't want her to have a boss-figure.

And she doesn't.

Someone else sets up her training, gives her her costume, provides her with supplies, and tests her.

So what? Is Kate somehow supposed to do all that stuff herself? Especially when her father has way more connections, especially to the special operations community?

I mean ever trying to make it look like she's dead (to other characters, even) was weak. Nobody buys it, it's old and tired.

I bought it when I first read it. I had no expectation that Beth would ever return, because she's not a huge character like any of the Trinity or whatever.

[Tzigone]

Unlikable =/= wicked. She's at worst stuffy and old-fashioned. Heck, Catherine actually likes Kate a lot.

Sorry, I wasn't being literal. Just a watered-down wicked stepmother trope, a thorn in the side. I'd have preferred a neutral of likable one. Again, as I've said, I didn't read many issues. The entire point is first impressions that turned me off so I didn't bother reading anymore.

Jacob is her father. And he wants to stop her from doing something incredibly dangerous that, at the time, she was not trained for, because he has already lost one of his daughters.

Like... do you genuinely take issue with that? That a father wants to protect his daughter from very reasonable danger?

No, I take issue with an authority figure as a fellow worker in the hero businesses with her when I specifically thought (incorrectly) and chose to read her because she was unlike the Bat proteges specifically because she didn't have an authority figure like they did.

He does do that. But when Kate breaks off ties with him, her operations don't shut down, because she has her own income. Even before becoming Batwoman, she was buying weapons and gear off the black market, for instance, and that's not anywhere in the neighborhood of cheap.

Right. But I never got that far because I didn't like the initial set up. No reason for me to read what I'm not enjoying.

So what? Is Kate somehow supposed to do all that stuff herself? Especially when her father has way more connections, especially to the special operations community?

Yes, she is supposed to do that herself. Just like Bruce did. Just like every silver age hero did. I really miss when heroes could start out on their own instead of having previous generations (heroes or not) do all the training, set all the rules, and judge them. Really irked me during the early Post-COIE comics when new heroes didn't get the same freedom and independence to form that older generations of heroes did, but instead had to have older heroes drop by to either train them and grant approval or judge and chastise them. It would have been much better IMO, if her father was a normal guy instead of being in a position to do all this. She could have done it herself, the way the old heroes got to. That's what I was looking for. No matter how wonderful the character is, she wasn't what I wanted.

I bought it when I first read it. I had no expectation that Beth would ever return, because she's not a huge character like any of the Trinity or whatever.

A dead evil twin? No way. Way too much dramatic potential to stay dead. And early in a hero's career is the time to build up a rogue's gallery, so candidates really can't be killed off. Joker supposedly died his first or second time out, but of course he didn't. No one is dead without a very visible on-panel death and a body remaining in comic books. And she already had one fake death, so there was that.


I understand you see it differently - my problem is that I had a certain expectation based on what I'd read about the character. The first few issues of Detective Comics dashed my expectations of that by not having her in control and setting the course and making the decisions and getting to do all those things heroes used to get to do for themselves. And introduced a "bad" stepmother (a trope I don't like) and an evil twin (a trope I despise). While it may become fantastic later, it just wasn't to my taste, wasn't what I wanted. As such, I have no personal feelings on Kate as a character, just disappointment for a premise that I think would have been better. For how much I enjoyed the character before the elements I don't like came into play. For me, she's a "what might've been" character. Like I said before, if I hadn't gone in with high hopes for a specific aspect that was lacking, I'd likely have had different perspective (though not on the sister or stepmother). But I had certain expectations that weren't met, so it was a disappointment, even if it might have been good without those expectations.