Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2021

[otipep_90]

Honestly, my biggest wish when they've focused on Jean and the Phoenix or the Dark Phoenix is to not make it always just two sides of the coin, but factor Maddy in and view the THREE of them....Jean, Maddy and the Phoenix.....as an allegory for the triplicate goddess figure. (Which ironically they just delved into with Wanda in ToM, though I think it works MUCH better with Jean, as I outline below):

BobbysWorld that’s some food for thought, for sure. So thank you. In my personal cannon I have always viewed {Maddie/Anodyne/Goblin Queen} as a continuation of the {Jean/Phoenix/Black Queen-Dark Phoenix}story, which to me deal with trauma and identity. Her transformation to Goblin Queen mirrored Jean’s transformation to Black Queen-Dark Phoenix. A soul reborn and fated to repeat a mirror distortion of a past life’s story. The story potential from their gestalt at the end of the original Inferno would have been an ideal point to explore this.

I wish the writers would explore this now with Maddie’s resurrection and Jean maybe going into a small identity crisis, (restarting the X-Men and rethinking your costume/moniker). Maybe the stars are aligning and the Phoenix Force will be available to interact with them on some level. The X-Factor era under Louise Simonson and Chris Claremont explored some of this during the temporary gestalt, but could’ve had a more lasting effect (she kind of felt like the same old Marvel Girl at the end).

By the way the Peter David’s X-Factor Annual #5 backup story that was posted a few pages back is a treasure worth rereading from that era.

[WallStreeter]

A very easy way to reconnect Jean with the Phoenix imo would be, ironically, using one of Aaron's introductions to the mythos: The 1000000 B.C Phoenix.

Say she's an ancestor of Jean. Maybe even that Jean is her reincarnation. I don't know if that's already a thing or not, but if you say the Phoenix host was the first mutant, you're then connecting Jean to the origins of mutantkind itself. I even have a reason as to why the Phoenix wouldn't tell her that and instead pull all of those Phoenix Resurrection shennanigans: She knows Jean doesn't like to have her fate/future decided for her, so she wanted Jean bonding with her again to be fully her own choice.

I think that’s why Firehair was introduced. As a ticket to fix the Phoenix. It’s quite clear Firehair is meant to be an early incarnation of Jean as she even has the same powers.

[Spiderfan001]

What do we think will be Jean's relationship to this new Captain Krakoa?

[Mercury]

Yeah, I know, it’s because I tried to fit the convoluted Phoenix retcons into my idea. :-) Everytime I say that Jean originally was the Phoenix all by herself so many are referring to the Phoenix retcon and say that ”oh no, she wasn’t, it was a cosmic force”. This is me trying to keep the original story as well as please everyone who feel the retcon is truer than the original story.

Honestly, you did a fabulous job! Also, as I mentioned before, I would love it if, once they make Jean Phoenix again, she ascended to White Phoenix of the Crown status--something that maybe she can only do at a great cost, even if she does have full control; perhaps being put in a month-long coma or something--and resurrected the D'Bari and reconstructed their planet. That could be a really beautiful, come-full-circle story.

To me the original story is both beautiful and important. A brave and powerful woman tries to save her loved ones and transcends - she reaches her ultimate potential. A potential Moira and Xavier always suspected she had (as told in UXM #125). When that is taken away from her, it is the editors who told Claremont that no woman could be as powerful as Thor all over again. With the retcon those guys won. ”See, she was never that powerful. She needed a cosmic force to help her.”

This notion has for some reason followed her throughout the years, that Jean canÂ’t reach those levels. Yes, it is hinted, but everytime someone has Jean explore her powers something happens. Kelly and Seagle writes Jean as Phoenix? There is a psi war and all telepaths lose their powers. Morrison explores Jean as Phoenix? Her death is one of the longest lasting for a Marvel hero. Taylor has Jean say that she wants to explore her potential? Hickman gives the X-books an entire overhaul. (Just kidding. I know it had nothing to do with Jean. Or did it Â…? )

These are all very astute points worthy of reflection.

Yes, that is probably the most elegant solution today.

I agree.

Honestly, not only can the Phoenix be salvaged; it simply will be. The Mouse will be publishing these characters in some form until the end of humanity. The Phoenix will change again regardless of what they are doing with it at this particular moment. May as well start fixing it now and installing hard rules into the mythos right now.

Though I am not necessarily pining for it, I have this hope to and can totally see it happening.

Dark Phoenix was born of trauma and the loss of self-identity, not by a corruptible powerup.

E.X.A.C.T.L.Y. It doesn't take much interpretation to see that this was the case.

[Mercury]

I couldn't fit all of this in the previous post.

Honestly, my biggest wish when they've focused on Jean and the Phoenix or the Dark Phoenix is to not make it always just two sides of the coin, but factor Maddy in and view the THREE of them....Jean, Maddy and the Phoenix.....as an allegory for the triplicate goddess figure. (Which ironically they just delved into with Wanda in ToM, though I think it works MUCH better with Jean, as I outline below):

The idea of the triplicate goddess figure repeats over and over throughout global mythologies and stories, from the Fates and Graeae to the Morrigan to the Norns to the Weird Sisters, etc, etc, etc.

Like, just the STRUCTURE of the concept of the three-sided/three-natured powerful woman or women, it just works and resonates on an internalized level that most people instantly recognize and are familiar with even if they donÂ’t even realize it or realize why.

This is even the case with the Christian trinity.

Just thinking of all the stuff Marvel couldÂ’ve done with that concept and structure if instead of making it so being the latest Phoenix host is just a party favor handed out freely at all major in-universe events, theyÂ’d just had some chill and contained it not just to the duality of Jean and the PhoenixÂ…Â…but the triplicate nature of Jean and Madelyne Pryor and the Phoenix.

Like, there’s just so many different ways you can explore that particular trope if they’d made THAT the trope, instead of just the Jean/Dark Phoenix dichotomy, because it opens it up from just a yawn-worthy ‘oh look, a super powerful woman who can’t control her power and is corrupted by it how novel, how interesting, how real,’ to a lot more complex and nuanced triangle where you’ve got….

Maddy the Goblyn Queen and Jean the hero on opposite extremes with the Phoenix in the middle and thus able to be either a force for good or the Dark PhoenixÂ…..

But then you could ALSO just as easily look at it from the angle of Maddy aka Anodyne the healer and the Dark Phoenix are on opposite extremes and Jean is in the middle, with THOSE representing the duality of two different sides of Jean, as each of them were in effect born of her in different ways before taking on lives of their own but in entirely different directionsÂ….

And then additionally you could just as easily look at it from a third angle and put Maddy in the middle with Jean and the Dark Phoenix on either side of her and the lure in opposing directions between the altruism of heroism and the protection of power untempered by mercy, being like, mirrors held up reflecting the different paths Maddy could go down.

IÂ’m just saying, instead of Jean vs Dark Phoenix or Jean vs Maddy, like, when you treat all THREE of them as pieces of a whole, thereÂ’s so much more ground to explore and possibilities to play off of.

Because the major flaw of pairing just any two of those three up for examination is that youÂ’re always going to end up with a dichotomy where it looks like its either or, all or nothingÂ…..if MaddyÂ’s the bad guy, then Jean must be the good guy, and JeanÂ’s so much more complicated than that because the Dark Phoenix was originally born of impulses the Phoenix found within Jean while lacking JeanÂ’s humanity to limit them.

Or when both the Dark Phoenix and Maddy as the Goblyn Queen are viewed next to Jean one at a time, it in effect treats both of them as the Ms. Hyde to JeanÂ’s Dr. Jekyll, which ignores the reality that Maddy was always more than just JeanÂ’s darker half, she was a complete person of her own who always had just as much potential for good and initial desires to pursue THOSE inclinations before MarvelÂ’s overall storylines simply just never let her.

Etc, etc, etc.

Idk what the point of this post is, just randomly musing about how the instinct to make everything about perfect foils and iconically opposed characters as two sides of the same coin, like, it doesnÂ’t come from nowhere, sure, but its worth recognizing that it can also be very limiting in its own right and just opening up a singular spectrum to a three-sided triangle where EVERY corner of said triangle is a distinct entity in their own right and thus can be viewed from more than one angle rather than just inherently viewed as the opposite of whatever the chosen focus point is, likeÂ…Â…that can make for some very different and much more nuanced perspectives.

As always, you provide much to ponder! Personally, I wish they would just allow Madelyne to go back to who she was when she first met Scott. As far as I'm concerned, the greatest disservice done to that character was to make her a woman scorned times infinity. This doesn't mean she can't have conflicts and come to terms with what happened to her as the Goblin Queen, but I think the tie between her and Jean should be severed. It does neither character any good and, inevitably, pits them against one another.

As I see it, while Madelyne is a clone of Jean, was animated by the fragment of Jean's essence that she rejected after the Phoenix Force tried returning it to her, and, at one point, contained a fragment of the Phoenix Force, she is not an exact duplicate of Jean. She wasn't born with Jean's full genetic potential and has not been sought after by the Phoenix Force the way Jean has been. She may have later manifested telepathy and telekinesis, but I also don't believe she is an Omega Level mutant.

Granted, my view I'm sure is colored by my bias towards Jean. But, honestly, it's also born from a desire to see Madelyne treated with dignity and respect, instead of some a clown who's still angry about a man. There are so many things that could be explored with her if the writers weren't dead set on keeping her a villain. She had a life, dreams, desires, and a personality of her own before her downfall. I wish they would focus on that and on allowing her to build an actual relationship with her biological son.

Nice! Reminds me of the Evolution cartoon aesthetics. I wonder how it would look with a gold tiara like the one from the Hellfire Gala dress, instead of the head sock.

I think the artist was inspired by Evolution! Frankly, I would prefer no head sock or tiara!

BobbysWorld thatÂ’s some food for thought, for sure. So thank you. In my personal cannon I have always viewed {Maddie/Anodyne/Goblin Queen} as a continuation of the {Jean/Phoenix/Black Queen-Dark Phoenix}story, which to me deal with trauma and identity. Her transformation to Goblin Queen mirrored JeanÂ’s transformation to Black Queen-Dark Phoenix. A soul reborn and fated to repeat a mirror distortion of a past lifeÂ’s story. The story potential from their gestalt at the end of the original Inferno would have been an ideal point to explore this.

I wish the writers would explore this now with MaddieÂ’s resurrection and Jean maybe going into a small identity crisis, (restarting the X-Men and rethinking your costume/moniker). Maybe the stars are aligning and the Phoenix Force will be available to interact with them on some level. The X-Factor era under Louise Simonson and Chris Claremont explored some of this during the temporary gestalt, but couldÂ’ve had a more lasting effect (she kind of felt like the same old Marvel Girl at the end).

By the way the Peter DavidÂ’s X-Factor Annual #5 backup story that was posted a few pages back is a treasure worth rereading from that era.

You've made me slightly reconsider my response to BobbysWorld. Still, I would prefer if Jean re-absorbed from Madelyne whatever residual darkness pertains her, i.e., whatever is left of her memories and consciousness, and just left Madelyne with her memories as Madelyne. Mind you, I'm not well-versed in Madelyne's story, but I think she has enough history and pathos to make for an interesting story outside of the Goblin Queen schtick.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

What do we think will be Jean's relationship to this new Captain Krakoa?

The same relationship she has to him now; telephone.

[jwatson]

Maybe on to something with Jean creating phoenix. That's a good theory. Also if Jean has been described as a nexus, and phoenix is the nexus of all physic energy and Jean's pink powers absorbs psionic energy to make her stronger shouldn't she just be able to absorb the phoenix and be done with it.

[Mercury]

The same relationship she has to him now; telephone.

KITTY! !)#($*#$&@!!!!

Lord, give me patience with this one...

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

KITTY! !)#($*#$&@!!!!

Lord, give me patience with this one...

[Mercury]

Maybe on to something with Jean creating phoenix. That's a good theory. Also if Jean has been described as a nexus, and phoenix is the nexus of all physic energy and Jean's pink powers absorbs psionic energy to make her stronger shouldn't she just be able to absorb the phoenix and be done with it.

She should be able to reabsorb it. In fact, if Marvel had her snap her fingers tomorrow and say, "To me, my Phoenix," and it returned to her, no one would be against it--not even her detractors, which says a lot. The beautiful thing about certain pivotal moments in her history regarding her abilities--the assessment by Computo classifying her as having "infinite mental powers" (1960s); Destiny referring to her as "an anomaly" and "a nexus of probabilities" (1980s); her taking control of the White Hot Room and Phoenix Force without ever having bonded with it during her time-displacement--is that none of them have been negated or retconned. The writers have an easy way into reestablishing her as Phoenix.

[Mercury]

In other news, a fan on Twitter just let me know where they got this t-shirt and I almost died. I need and will get this now.

[jwatson]

She should be able to reabsorb it. In fact, if Marvel had her snap her fingers tomorrow and say, "To me, my Phoenix," and it returned to her, no one would be against it--not even her detractors, which says a lot. The beautiful thing about certain pivotal moments in her history regarding her abilities--the assessment by Computo classifying her as having "infinite mental powers" (1960s); Destiny referring to her as "an anomaly" and "a nexus of probabilities" (1980s); her taking control of the White Hot Room and Phoenix Force without ever having bonded with it during her time-displacement--is that none of them have been negated or retconned. The writers have an easy way into reestablishing her as Phoenix.

And due to her omega status with none of the later mental problems. It would make no sense for the power of phoenix to corrupt or overpower Jean if they went with it as a sentient being because her very pink power would basically absorb it's energy and convert it into fuel for her psionic powers. Like if Jean was a jinchurikki of all the phoenix's she would be the Kushina type.

[Celestialbodies]

To be fair, we hardly know the inner machinations of any of the characters in this run. I have no idea what Betsy is thinking or feeling over in Excalibur, and she is the main character.



To me feats are important since they remind us of Jean’s power level. One of the things that I like about Jean is that she knows that she has these terrible energies inside of her (to quote Apocalypse), and it scares her a bit (what would happen if she cuts loose completely, how much damage could she cause?), and at the same time she is really drawn to these powers of hers (what would happen if she cuts loose completely - how wonderful would it feel, would she be able to stop?).
If all we saw her do was read people’s minds and float, the above aspect would lose its impact. So I need feats every now and then.


.

Very true! We haven't had indepth explorations of character development in this era. But I do think various writers have focused on specific aspects of a majority of X-men in this era and explored that. Whether that was good or not is up for debate however with Jean specifically most of her contributions in this era could be removed and nothing changes.


Regarding feats I definitely agree, the point I should have made was I no longer ONLY care about feats because at the end of the day. An interesting personality will always trump powersets and writers are more interest in unique personalities. With Jean, there's dozens of other character who can do what she does only few can relate to a plot like her when she is used more invasively.

Thank you! I don't think we are asking for too much when it comes to character exploration. God knows some characters history has been so overdone that they have to retcon sh!t just to make a story out of it. Like do we really need a 10th solo telling us the backstory of this or that character?

Well said!

Thank you!!!

You've brought up some good points. However, to be clear, no one is trying to dictate what's being said here. Personally, I'm just asking that Jean not be insulted in her own appreciation thread. Calling her "nothing without the Phoenix" is patently untrue and not conducive to a fruitful discussion.

I could be petty and just start reporting posters that continue to deride and demean her in here. Based on what I've witnessed in Storm's thread, these posts would most certainly get deleted. However, I'm trying to appeal to posters. Besides, I do enjoy a good debate.



No, psi-linking all of the mutants on Earth and the SWORD station orbiting Mars (without the help of the Cuckoos), evading detection by a cosmic being--a god, in fact--to coordinate an attack on him before ransacking his mind, and yanking a Class Three Demon--a Fear Lord--from his own realm to swiftly dispel him "shows how Omega she is," dear.

Wasn't specific to you, as you've done an admiral job with your research on Jean and I commend you. But personally I been here since 2009, fans come and go heck only a few of us are still around now. The point I'm making is this should be a safespace for all Jean fans and for all discussions. This isn't even the hundredth time I've heard the arguments such as negative discussion drive fans away. All I can do is speak of my experience and that's at various points even the biggest fan takes a break from this thread I know I have whether it be days, weeks, or months at a time. Plus there's not a ton to discuss with Jean the biggest changes with the character has been her costume, leaving the council, and starting a new team. Unfortunately those 3 things are literally the least interesting things about most of her peers. I'd much rather read about Storm and Jean bonding over their new positions, Emma reading her for filth regarding her fashions and Scott's overall bad taste, or even her discussing with Erik and Charles thoughts about her leaving the council and current affairs.


Most of my comments are honestly about my changing relationship with Jean. In the past any mention or action from Jean was enough for me no matter how miniscule. That's no longer enough for me, I need development because what I'm realizing is. The longer Jean stays in passive roles the more writers sees her this way and limits her usage. Right now I strongly believe Jean dependent on where she appears has the "writer supplant" personality meaning depending on the issue or story she's whatever the writer needs her to be, Duggan notwithstanding. Characters like that are not used very well, the start of this era is a great example between Hickman's portrayal as a powerful telepath but battle incompetent, whereas Percy's Jean is more in-line with what came before but incredibly inconsistent with how he used her in his overall narrative. Jean is my favorite comic book character in general, but I often ask myself if I weren't a fan and didnt know her history in the current is she someone I'd gravitate towards? And the answer for me is no!

She could rock that look Asrar gave her when she floats into the sky first issue of Red. Asrar had her looking fly that entire series. We were blessed in many ways then.

It’s not the negativity that drives people away. Constructive criticism can bring awareness to the short comings of a character’s current portrayal. It’s certainly better for me then pretending everything is ok with Jean when it’s not.

I dont post much because there’s nothing of note regarding Jean’s character growth or impact on the stories to discuss. You take her out and the stories would function the same. The same can be said for a lot of characters that dont fall under the antihero umbrella this era though. They’re just mouth pieces.

And coming into a thread with a wall of text or a dozen images we’ve all seen before isn’t exactly engaging or inviting to old or new posters.

All of this!!

I've always wanted this explored more, jean being able to go in and out of being white phoenix, doing phoenix work. Meeting other phoenix avatars from across other universes. You know...NEW stuff.



We need the phoenix reigned in back to just JEAN...and new take on the mythos centered around her.

I wish someone was interested in exploring Jean's relationship with the Phoenix!

I found so nonsensical when random characters are labelled "Dark Phoenix", bc they don't have anything to do with the og Dark Phoenix, not even close. They are just called Dark Phoenix and that's it lmao. It was such a monumental tragedy for Jean Grey and now it's a random villain that looks like a Digimon in Aaron's Avengers. And I really like Scott but I felt a lot of cringe when they labelled him "Dark Phoenix" at the end of AVX. I wish they stop naming whatever thing "dark phoenix" (but that will not happen with Aaron writing lmao).

This right here bothers me to no end, it's the casual detachment from Jean of concepts and themes that should be focused on. DP specifically AvX was bad enough but to see how little Marvel cares about these life altering themes for Jean being used as a gimmick for others you have her husband and some creature that'll never be heard from again. Both becoming something that changed Jean’s life forever and will probably never even be referenced again. It makes me both angry and defeated because if no one cares about the stories they affected Jean, how they'll use these stories will mean even less which once again takes from the overall legacy of the character.
.

I agree Jean being Phoenix shouldn't automatically mean she's going to die but I understand why fans feel that way. I just wish in Phoenix Resurrection: the return of Jean Grey that Jean got to do something big and meaningful with the Phoenix before it left from her. I hated the storyline that it was toxic relationship and that the Phoenix deceives and manipulates her. Rosenberg read Morrison's run but got that from it? Yikes! I assume Jean would lose the Phoenix since she was coming back and writers like Dennis Hopeless had already said that the Phoenix power was too much for any person to control/wield. It didn't bother me that she lost the Phoenix it was just how it happened that I hated.

My problem is that Jean's Phoenix stories often get retconned. We have the retcon with Dark Phoenix but even Jean in Here Comes Tomorrow is widely held to be an alternate reality Jean despite the acknowledgment in Phoenix Endsong. Heck some fans argue that Endsong is in question. I think if Jean was going to lose the Phoenix she should have had a destiny fulfilled arc where she got to do something big and meaningful and show why she is the "perfect host" or whatever.

But alas the Phoenix has been mangled so bad and though I will always love Jean as Phoenix (I think it is her best codename and best costume) it is just so messy right now. It may can be savaged but my fear is that it will stay in the Avengers office for a long time. Who knows what other craziness they are going to do with it.

It amazes me how many writers didn’t don’t understand that ‘Dark Phoenix’ is the other side of the coin to Jean’s ‘Black Queen’ persona as molded by Mastermind. Largest miss interpretation in the franchise. It almost similar to how Ernest was a reprogrammed Casandra Nova.

Dark Phoenix was born of trauma and the loss of self-identity, not by a corruptible powerup.

All of this! I just wish her stories built upon one another instead of detaching her from them only to explore it with another character. It seems to be the standard for Jean.

[Mercury]

And due to her omega status with none of the later mental problems. It would make no sense for the power of phoenix to corrupt or overpower Jean if they went with it as a sentient being because her very pink power would basically absorb it's energy and convert it into fuel for her psionic powers. Like if Jean was a jinchurikki of all the phoenix's she would be the Kushina type.

This is an interesting take. However, Jean already proved that she could handle the Phoenix Force, which, per Claremont, is still her birthright, during New X-Men. If she was going to go dark, there were specific stressful moments during that series that should have been the moments for her to do so (her confrontation with the U-Men, her discovery of "the affair," etc.). However, she never did go dark. Even in Phoenix Resurrection, she barely went dark and was pretty much able to subdue the Phoenix Force.

Very true! We haven't had indepth explorations of character development in this era. But I do think various writers have focused on specific aspects of a majority of X-men in this era and explored that. Whether that was good or not is up for debate however with Jean specifically most of her contributions in this era could be removed and nothing changes.

Except, Krakoans might not have banded together at the right time during X of Swords and there would be no new X-Men, though, to be fair, you did mention some of this below.

Wasn't specific to you, as you've done an admiral job with your research on Jean and I commend you. But personally I been here since 2009, fans come and go heck only a few of us are still around now. The point I'm making is this should be a safespace for all Jean fans and for all discussions. This isn't even the hundredth time I've heard the arguments such as negative discussion drive fans away. All I can do is speak of my experience and that's at various points even the biggest fan takes a break from this thread I know I have whether it be days, weeks, or months at a time. Plus there's not a ton to discuss with Jean the biggest changes with the character has been her costume, leaving the council, and starting a new team. Unfortunately those 3 things are literally the least interesting things about most of her peers. I'd much rather read about Storm and Jean bonding over their new positions, Emma reading her for filth regarding her fashions and Scott's overall bad taste, or even her discussing with Erik and Charles thoughts about her leaving the council and current affairs.

Wow. You've been here going on thirteen years. That certainly puts things into perspective, which helps me understand where you're coming from a lot better. Also, I understand your complaints and can even agree with some of them, but I'm also hopeful and cognizant of how much time and dedication she has been given. She was central in 2012-2019. Hell, she just officially returned in 2017. Perhaps I'm not as jaded or pessimistic as some fans, who may have valid reasons for being so. I have hope and I believe that representing her in a positive manner attracts positivity to her. I know, I'm sounding a little woowoo, lol. But it's true! I've had the chance to speak with creators who have handled her in the past and are charged with handling her as we speak! Many of them have been receptive to my compliments and even some criticisms. Some of them even follow me. I've also spoken privately with a few prominent people in the industry, including a particular journalist who has given me some keen insight into how creatives respond to negative feedback.

More importantly, do you want to know why I've been able to do this? It's because I make it a point of sharing the love I have for her and the joy she brings me as a character by representing her in the best light possible. I highlight her history, her potential, how she has been a groundbreaking character, and how she has meant and still means so much to so many. And people respond to that. And that response generates excitement and enthusiasm. I'm not so sure they would respond or that either excitement or enthusiasm would be generated if I spent my time making fun of or putting her down, or attacking and complaining to creatives. I ease in my desires for her. I say things like, "This scene in which Jean does [insert something, anything] sort of contradicts what she did or what was established here [insert another scene]. I would love it if we could maybe be more faithful to [insert something] or explore this about her." I also try to compliment what creators do get right, even if it is minuscule. Finally, I flood them with facts and scans regarding her history. I've never been blocked and I've never been at the receiving end of snark or an unkind word. In fact, quite the contrary.

Most of my comments are honestly about my changing relationship with Jean. In the past any mention or action from Jean was enough for me no matter how miniscule. That's no longer enough for me, I need development because what I'm realizing is. The longer Jean stays in passive roles the more writers sees her this way and limits her usage. Right now I strongly believe Jean dependent on where she appears has the "writer supplant" personality meaning depending on the issue or story she's whatever the writer needs her to be, Duggan notwithstanding. Characters like that are not used very well, the start of this era is a great example between Hickman's portrayal as a powerful telepath but battle incompetent, whereas Percy's Jean is more in-line with what came before but incredibly inconsistent with how he used her in his overall narrative. Jean is my favorite comic book character in general, but I often ask myself if I weren't a fan and didnt know her history in the current is she someone I'd gravitate towards? And the answer for me is no!

I understand this. Thankfully, she does have a large history, which has seen her go through ups, downs, and deaths--all of which she has survived and transcended.

This right here bothers me to no end, it's the casual detachment from Jean of concepts and themes that should be focused on. DP specifically AvX was bad enough but to see how little Marvel cares about these life altering themes for Jean being used as a gimmick for others you have her husband and some creature that'll never be heard from again. Both becoming something that changed Jean’s life forever and will probably never even be referenced again. It makes me both angry and defeated because if no one cares about the stories they affected Jean, how they'll use these stories will mean even less which once again takes from the overall legacy of the character.

I understand and empathize with all of this, too. Again, I'm just hopeful is all. Every time I log onto Twitter and am reminded of how many fans she has out there, it gives me hope for her. One tweet that touched me last month--I posted about this before--was by Donald Mustard, the Chief Creative Officer at Epic Games (Fortnite), who quoted a tweet announcing the premiere of Dark Phoenix on Fortnite and wrote:

Jean Grey. The Dark Phoenix. Best jeans ever.

https://twitter.com/DonaldMustard/st...53221305634821

That's not the tweet that really touched me, though. The tweet that really touched me was the one he was referring to, which he had tweeted weeks before.

Did you ever have the most perfect pair of jeans ever? And then one day they inexplicably disappeared?! And you were like… I bet ‘they’ are to blame!!! Yeah. That one. The one that didn’t like ‘em. But I loved ‘em. They made me feel great. And comfy.

#missyouperfectjeans https://twitter.com/DonaldMustard/st...28809206943746

Her legacy isn't forgotten and neither is she. The love that's out there for her is phenomenal. I'd rather lean into and capitalize on that.

[BobbysWorld]

I'm just copying and pasting my post from the Most Controversial X-Franchise opinion because of Johnnysv5's idea for the Phoenix and Jean.....because ironically, its actually pretty similar to one of the original ideas for Jean and omega mutants in general when they first did X-Men Forever in the 90s. Putting it here since not everybody goes into that thread obviously and its relevant to this particular discussion, I feel:

My controversial opinion on the X-Universe was I preferred the take where the Phoenix was always Jean and Jean was always the Phoenix. It was the basis behind the original X-Men Forever miniseries establishing omegas, and why Bobby was chosen as the other original omega aside from her. Basically the idea as I understood it was that the Phoenix was always the ultimate evolution of Jean herself, what she could grow to become in thousands of years, kept alive via her own mutant power and telekinetic control over her molecular structure and her psyche, until a point where she transcended the need for a physical body and just existed as the Phoenix. But as for the Phoenix existing in the past.....that's because Jean's ultimate omega potential was to exist as an entity of pure telekinetic and telepathic godhood anywhere in TIME and space. Because see, Nathan and Rachel inherited her powers.....and the idea was that Rachel's chronoskimming power, to psychically see through time, was supposed to be rooted in a latent aspect of Jean's own powers, something that would unlock with her full potential.

And thus that's how Jean would become the Phoenix but still exist millions of years in the past, and be the basis of the Shi'ar legends and all that, etc. And its ALSO why she and her descendants are the prime 'hosts' for the Phoenix.....because when the Phoenix 'possessed' her, it was really just Jean's fully evolved and transcended self REUNITING with its own initial human existence....and in the process being reminded of human wants, needs and concerns, what it was like to be human, something the Phoenix had forgotten due to its endless eons of existence. And similarly, when it bonded with Rachel, it was the connection to her daughter that Jean/The Phoenix was resonating with. That's why even though the Phoenix has always been hosted by telepaths, seeking a symbiosis with mortal minds that reminded it of its origins, Jean and Rachel were its 'true' hosts, because they were of it in a way no one else was.

And then that's also why Bobby was chosen to be the other omega mutant, because although Claremont created The First Fallen to be the Phoenix's opposite, the idea at the time that making Jean and the Phoenix one and the same was what was floating around the X-office, it was Bobby who was intended to be its opposite in that way......because Bobby's full omega potential isn't making ice or controlling water, its essentially.....stopping energy, taking it away. Ending things.

See, when X-Men Forever first floated the idea of omega mutants, it was in a story with Celestials, and the whole idea was that omegas were the ultimate culmination of the Celestials' experiments on Earth. They were the point, the end goal. Beings who would someday evolve to take the place of the current Abstracts like Oblivion and Death and become the mechanism that would end this universe and start the next one. Jean as the Phoenix and Bobby were the fundamental starting point/lynch pin of that concept, as at their ultimate evolution, millions of years in the future long after they'd transcended existing as mortal bodies and were just pure power and consciousness.....Bobby would be the inevitable heat-death of the universe, the one who finally just said to all things "Stop" and ground the mechanism of the current universe to a stop, all that is ending with the absolute death of heat, which is of course just the result of molecules in motion and without it, molecules have no motion and nothing anywhere moves or does anything.....and then his counterpart, Jean, the Phoenix, was the spark that would take the graveyard of this universe and use it as kindling to ignite the next Big Bang, birthing the next universe. With whatever other omegas existed/transcended by then being the only other things besides them that would survive, and then they'd be what created the mechanisms of the new universe and becoming the Abstract/Framework entities of the next universe.