Jason Todd: Robin, Arkham Knight, Red Hood Appreciation 2018

[Pohzee]

Annoying fellow? Lol. I don't post on here to get a rise out of anyone, I post to give my opinions. I'll jump into a thread and post my opinion even if it's in the minority. Am I just supposed to keep quiet and go away?

I don't want Jason as a villain to Dick, Dick and Jason never really interacted that much before the reboot outside of Morrison and Battle for the Cowl and him being a villain for him makes no sense. Jason is Bruce's biggest failure. Bruce didn't save him and that's tragic, UTH was the one of the few stories that actually got me interested in Jason. I read almost all his history before A Death in the Family which I love. I think it's important for a superhero universe to have consequences and important historical moments, especially one that has been around as long as DC has. Jason's death, Barry's death, IC (I hate that story but it's still important to the overall history), the rest of CoIE, etc. Stories/moments like these help world build and give foundations to be used for future stories.

Undoing things like this limits those foundations unless a unique twist is given to it. Jason coming back after the Bat-family has evolved and grown to a certain point just feels like adding another member that is just there because he was there first instead of earning a spot. Jason was also only around for 5 years before he died. That's not a lot of time to build a fully formed character which is where I think a lot of people feel like Jason was wronged. I think a lot of Jason fans are like Terra fans, they wanted more from the character after they died. Granted Terra was meant to die and Jason was decided on by fans. I really do get it but he died and should've stayed dead. It was a historic moment for Bruce and had plenty of story potential that was used well in following the effects of Jason's death.

As for your last part, you can stick to a code and stick be crazy as hell. Bruce is absolutely insane by real world logic but has an unwavering dedication to his mission and beliefs. To me Jason as an Anti-Hero feels like a generic 90s action hero with a chip on his shoulder. He runs around and shoots people while making jokes. (I don't want to get into his friendship with Roy because that's a whole other problem I have but back to my main point.) Like I said undoing deaths or important moments are wasteful and limiting unless there is a twist to them. Jason coming back as a villain for Batman, the greatest failure comes back to haunt him and can hurt him worse than any other villain every could. He would be Hush turned up to 11 or a reverse Darth Vader and Luke dynamic. When Jason returned he literally killed and decapitated 8 people and became a crime boss, that is just him getting started but now all of a sudden he's just welcomed back with open arms to characters he has only ever tried to kill. It just asks too much to ignore and UTH is still part of the canon and there is no way Bruce would accept him back. This is fundamentally my biggest issue, if Jason is accepted back it makes Bruce look like a hypocritical idiot and if Jason is around Gotham he promises not kill which makes him look like a hypocritical idiot. There is no winning unless you just ignore everything that he did which is just stupid to me. Being a villain doesn't just relegate Jason to just appearing in one book while fans just hope and pray the writer uses him. Look at Deathstroke's recent run, it's highly praised and I think is still selling well. (I haven't checked in awhile so I'm not sure.)

But anyway like I said this is just how I personally feel. I like him as an almost reverse Batman who takes his mission and twists into his own. Still running around doing his own thing all the while being in conflict with Bruce but not shackled to him.

I agree with you very much on all points.

I personally think that it is fine to appreciate Jason as a supporting aspect to other characters and the general Batmythos. I personally appreciate what Jason's death and what it meant to the Batfamily. I also appreciated his return as someone who represented a failing of Batman's morals. I prefer him to have an antagonistic relationship with the Batfamily. I think that it is a more interesting direction both for him an the other characters involved.

Does this mean that I don't appreciate him? No. I appreciate a different version of Jason Todd and that's perfectly acceptable. Even if you believe that this opinion is on the built on the basis of making Jason a plot device to other characters, that doesn't mean that its not appreciation. There are appreciation threads for the Penguin and Kite-Man on here and I am certain that nobody sees them the same way that anybody here views a character like Dick Grayson for example.

There are different levels and different kinds of appreciation. But they are all valid.

[Rise]

Freckles are indeed fanon, as it is the thing with the bread. That comes from the Annual telling how he came back from the dead, where at some point he's acting out of instinct in Gotham's slums and breaks in a bakery to steal some loaves of bread.

Oh, and they decided he likes bread from that? Remind me when some fans thought that Jason has a cruch on Kyle just because he sarcastically called him dreamy. It's amazing how things you think are obvious apparently aren't to some people.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Annoying fellow? Lol. I don't post on here to get a rise out of anyone, I post to give my opinions. I'll jump into a thread and post my opinion even if it's in the minority. Am I just supposed to keep quiet and go away?

I don't want Jason as a villain to Dick, Dick and Jason never really interacted that much before the reboot outside of Morrison and Battle for the Cowl and him being a villain for him makes no sense. Jason is Bruce's biggest failure. Bruce didn't save him and that's tragic, UTH was the one of the few stories that actually got me interested in Jason. I read almost all his history before A Death in the Family which I love. I think it's important for a superhero universe to have consequences and important historical moments, especially one that has been around as long as DC has. Jason's death, Barry's death, IC (I hate that story but it's still important to the overall history), the rest of CoIE, etc. Stories/moments like these help world build and give foundations to be used for future stories.

Undoing things like this limits those foundations unless a unique twist is given to it. Jason coming back after the Bat-family has evolved and grown to a certain point just feels like adding another member that is just there because he was there first instead of earning a spot. Jason was also only around for 5 years before he died. That's not a lot of time to build a fully formed character which is where I think a lot of people feel like Jason was wronged. I think a lot of Jason fans are like Terra fans, they wanted more from the character after they died. Granted Terra was meant to die and Jason was decided on by fans. I really do get it but he died and should've stayed dead. It was a historic moment for Bruce and had plenty of story potential that was used well in following the effects of Jason's death.

As for your last part, you can stick to a code and stick be crazy as hell. Bruce is absolutely insane by real world logic but has an unwavering dedication to his mission and beliefs. To me Jason as an Anti-Hero feels like a generic 90s action hero with a chip on his shoulder. He runs around and shoots people while making jokes. (I don't want to get into his friendship with Roy because that's a whole other problem I have but back to my main point.) Like I said undoing deaths or important moments are wasteful and limiting unless there is a twist to them. Jason coming back as a villain for Batman, the greatest failure comes back to haunt him and can hurt him worse than any other villain every could. He would be Hush turned up to 11 or a reverse Darth Vader and Luke dynamic. When Jason returned he literally killed and decapitated 8 people and became a crime boss, that is just him getting started but now all of a sudden he's just welcomed back with open arms to characters he has only ever tried to kill. It just asks too much to ignore and UTH is still part of the canon and there is no way Bruce would accept him back. This is fundamentally my biggest issue, if Jason is accepted back it makes Bruce look like a hypocritical idiot and if Jason is around Gotham he promises not kill which makes him look like a hypocritical idiot. There is no winning unless you just ignore everything that he did which is just stupid to me. Being a villain doesn't just relegate Jason to just appearing in one book while fans just hope and pray the writer uses him. Look at Deathstroke's recent run, it's highly praised and I think is still selling well. (I haven't checked in awhile so I'm not sure.)

But anyway like I said this is just how I personally feel. I like him as an almost reverse Batman who takes his mission and twists into his own. Still running around doing his own thing all the while being in conflict with Bruce but not shackled to him.

You know, is hard to take your opinion seriously when seemingly you haven't actually followed Jason's publication over the past seven years where most of the criticisms you have were adressed.

As for Bruce being an hypocrite if he accepts Jason back, well the current Bruce who has teamed up with nearly everyone in his rogue gallery at point or another (including the freaking Joker) through those very same seven years, he would be more of an hypocrite by not accepting Jason who hasn't done anything near as bad as some of those partners.

[Zaresh]

It was one of his finest moments as Robin.

One of my favourite moments was when he slapped Batman to make him chill and this.

He's pretty brave, assertive and caring, most of the time leading Bruce (stressed Bruce, anxious Bruce, damaged Bruce: Bruce in a bad place), all across the whole story until almost the end. It's awesome. You rarely see a sidekick doing that.

Just after that page he calls Bruce for if he's going to help him fight. In such a Jason way... You could really connect that Jason and our current one.

[Rise]

It's hard to take any of them seriously when one of them who pretend to like Jason said they wish for him to die by having his head explode. So please, let's just ignore these posts and not get into pointless argument with them.

And just let me say this to anyone who vist this thread, no one say that you should like Jason and it's ok if you don't. Being bitter that people like and enjoy something you don't and try to drail this thread by getting into pointless argument with people here isn't ok. I'm pretty sure most of us here are above 18 so let's act like mature adults please.

[Rise]

Apparently, Jensen (Ackles) with the help of a friend of his is working on a Red Hood costume for on set shenanigans.




It's nice how Jensen is still fond of him after all these years.

[G-Potion]

Apparently, Jensen (Ackles) with the help of a friend of his is working on a Red Hood costume for on set shenanigans.




It's nice how Jensen is still fond of him after all these years.

Halloween costume. Guess it won't be long until we see more of it. It does feel nice yes, yes.

[Jackalope89]

Ah, Uncle Jay is gonna be such a bad influence on her.

[okiedokiewo]

It's hard to take any of them seriously when one of them who pretend to like Jason said they wish for him to die by having his head explode. So please, let's just ignore these posts and not get into pointless argument with them.

And just let me say this to anyone who vist this thread, no one say that you should like Jason and it's ok if you don't. Being bitter that people like and enjoy something you don't and try to drail this thread by getting into pointless argument with people here isn't ok. I'm pretty sure most of us here are above 18 so let's act like mature adults please.

I make frequent use of the ignore button because it's always the usual suspects. Makes being in an APPRECIATION thread easier.

[Celgress]

Ah, Uncle Jay is gonna be such a bad influence on her.

Indeed he shall be lol.

[G-Potion]

'I like you when you are dead.' I tried to say it appreciatively. I can't. Move on.

[magpieM]

Is it wrong that whenever I read Jason's dialogue that I picture him having a Brooklyn accent, kind of like Raphael from TMNT?

I think Jason might have accent before being adopted, partially because of the street life and partially obtained from his father's accent. But later on it gradually disappeared since he mainly spoke with Bruce and Alfred.

For adult Jason, I still imagine him speaking in Jensen Ackles' voice. But it's OK for me if he gets some accent back.

[Aahz]

At least according to Morrison he has an accent.

[Sergard]

Annoying fellow? Lol. I don't post on here to get a rise out of anyone, I post to give my opinions. I'll jump into a thread and post my opinion even if it's in the minority. Am I just supposed to keep quiet and go away?

I'm pretty sure that you have already stated your opinion a few times in this thread. Always leading to the same discussion. So yes, if you only redundantly repeat yourself again and again, no one is gaining anything from it, except you by getting a rise out of other people. So do what everyone else here would do in another thread if they have said everything they wanted to say: "keep quiet and go away". Come back if you have something new to add. And don't start to play victim by saying you are "in the minority". Everyone here has different opinions. Some are okay with Jason killing, others say he should not, or if it's okay to which degree. Should he be part of the bat family like the other Robins, should he be the black sheep, or should he have his own family, etc.

I don't want Jason as a villain to Dick, Dick and Jason never really interacted that much before the reboot outside of Morrison and Battle for the Cowl and him being a villain for him makes no sense. Jason is Bruce's biggest failure. Bruce didn't save him and that's tragic, UTH was the one of the few stories that actually got me interested in Jason. I read almost all his history before A Death in the Family which I love. I think it's important for a superhero universe to have consequences and important historical moments, especially one that has been around as long as DC has. Jason's death, Barry's death, IC (I hate that story but it's still important to the overall history), the rest of CoIE, etc. Stories/moments like these help world build and give foundations to be used for future stories.

Nothing to add about the history before A Death in the Family. There were some good stories, yes. Death in the Family itself was rather ... not so well written. (And by that I don't mean the ending.)

Undoing things like this limits those foundations unless a unique twist is given to it. Jason coming back after the Bat-family has evolved and grown to a certain point just feels like adding another member that is just there because he was there first instead of earning a spot. Jason was also only around for 5 years before he died. That's not a lot of time to build a fully formed character which is where I think a lot of people feel like Jason was wronged. I think a lot of Jason fans are like Terra fans, they wanted more from the character after they died. Granted Terra was meant to die and Jason was decided on by fans. I really do get it but he died and should've stayed dead. It was a historic moment for Bruce and had plenty of story potential that was used well in following the effects of Jason's death.

I don't understand what you're getting at. Jason died - all potential that was gained from his death was used and by resurrecting him and writing UTH a twist was given that lead to new potential. Jason earned his spot by being "around for 5 years". And yes, he's just "another member", the same as Dick, Tim, Damian, Duke and Co. And a lot of Jason fans came around after his resurrection, because of the UTH comic, or the animated movie, or the Arkham Knight game, etc. And these fans - and all other fans of the character - will clearly disagree with you and your opinion that Jason "should've stayed dead", the same goes for other revived characters like Barry, Green Arrow, Superman, Wally West, etc.. I'd like to see your response when one of your favorite characters dies and DC decides to let the character stay dead because "consequences and important historical moments" should always stick forever. Nevermind that "forever" doesn't work in a concept like the DC universe. People want for example to read Bruce Wayne's Batman in 10 years, in 20 years and probably even in 100 years. So there will be always changes in continuity. Things will be undone and new "circumstances and important historical moments" will be created that will last for the next 10, 20 years or so. And nevermind that Bruce' whole Don't Kill Rule only exists because DC decided to undo all of Bruce' murdering from pre-crisis.

As for your last part, you can stick to a code and stick be crazy as hell. Bruce is absolutely insane by real world logic but has an unwavering dedication to his mission and beliefs. To me Jason as an Anti-Hero feels like a generic 90s action hero with a chip on his shoulder. He runs around and shoots people while making jokes. (I don't want to get into his friendship with Roy because that's a whole other problem I have but back to my main point.) Like I said undoing deaths or important moments are wasteful and limiting unless there is a twist to them. Jason coming back as a villain for Batman, the greatest failure comes back to haunt him and can hurt him worse than any other villain every could. He would be Hush turned up to 11 or a reverse Darth Vader and Luke dynamic. When Jason returned he literally killed and decapitated 8 people and became a crime boss, that is just him getting started but now all of a sudden he's just welcomed back with open arms to characters he has only ever tried to kill. It just asks too much to ignore and UTH is still part of the canon and there is no way Bruce would accept him back.

You do realize that Jason was an anti-hero in UTH? He was the antagonist but he wasn't a villain. His motives were clearly that of an anti-hero. And he was already running around shooting people and making jokes back in UTH. And he didn't try to kill Bruce in UTH. And the other batfam folks wasn't even around in the comic. So who are the characters "he has only ever tried to kill"? Because everything after UTH does not seem to be canon anymore. Nevermind that Bruce is stating near the end of UTH - after Jason has killed and decapitated 8 people and became a crime boss - that he is still trying to save Jason.

This is fundamentally my biggest issue, if Jason is accepted back it makes Bruce look like a hypocritical idiot and if Jason is around Gotham he promises not kill which makes him look like a hypocritical idiot. There is no winning unless you just ignore everything that he did which is just stupid to me.

It doesn't make them hypocritical idiots. It makes them father and son. Parents' love should be unconditional. And if there are problems then these problems should be worked on, even if this means trying forever without any hope of ever "winning" because that's not the point of being a family.

Being a villain doesn't just relegate Jason to just appearing in one book while fans just hope and pray the writer uses him. Look at Deathstroke's recent run, it's highly praised and I think is still selling well. (I haven't checked in awhile so I'm not sure.)

But anyway like I said this is just how I personally feel. I like him as an almost reverse Batman who takes his mission and twists into his own. Still running around doing his own thing all the while being in conflict with Bruce but not shackled to him.

As already mentioned, Jason was an anti-hero in UTH. Being a villain means doing evil stuff and hurting/killing innocent people/civilians. And that does not sound like Jason at all. But since you are basing your whole argumentation on the UTH comic the anti-hero/villain stuff only seems to be semantics. So again: What do you want to tell me? Yes, Deathstroke has a praised run. But so has Jason since the start of Rebirth. And since the start of Rebirth - and even before that - he is "running around doing his own thing". And if you have read that run you'll know that Jason and Bruce where never lovey-dovey in RHatO like the whole Joker stuff and Co. didn't happen. And even by sticking to Bruce' one rule not to kill, Jason was never shackled to him. There are other means than killing as the first Rebirth arc has shown. And it's a shame that the comic didn't delve more deeply into that topic.

The only thing that would shackle Jason to Bruce would be to make him a "reverse Batman" because than Jason isn't more than a "negative image" of Bruce that is defined by doing the opposite of the original image. (And by the way, there is already a villain with that property.)

[byrd156]

You know, is hard to take your opinion seriously when seemingly you haven't actually followed Jason's publication over the past seven years where most of the criticisms you have were adressed.

As for Bruce being an hypocrite if he accepts Jason back, well the current Bruce who has teamed up with nearly everyone in his rogue gallery at point or another (including the freaking Joker) through those very same seven years, he would be more of an hypocrite by not accepting Jason who hasn't done anything near as bad as some of those partners.

Those are one off or certain scenarios used for a specific plot line. We don't see Joker and Batman hanging out in the Batcave and working as a regular dynamic duo. Those are two very different things.

I haven't read every single issue that Jason has appeared in since the reboot, hell I haven't read every issue Dick or Kyle or other characters that I love have appeared in. Was in college and on a budget for the last 2 years so I didn't get to read everything plus I just moved again and need to find a new comic shop. I read the first 15 or so issues of RHatO as they were published, I would catch an occasional issue after that. Read a bit of when he joined Bizzaro and Artemis and didn't really care for it. I've read most of his publication history prior to the reboot, every time I check back in I don't really care for it version. So far I like the newest direction alright.