Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2022

[Grinning Soul]

EDITED: Sorry, Dam, I didn't see your reply before:

This exactly. I don't want Jean to be friend with Emma after all the suffering she has caused her.
They can be professional and that's it.

For me it's not really a matter of suffering that was inflicted. I just would not buy that friendship no matter how well written it could be. I take friendships *very* seriously. True friendship for me, is even more important than romantic love. So much so I could never fall for someone who wasn't a friend. My partner is my best friend and if we ever split, he'll continue to live in my heart and be one of the most important person in my life.

Emma was one of the reasons why Jean Grey became Dark Phoenix?! How can you forgive that?

Really curious: do you think forgive = forget?

I'm sure Jean can and has forgiven Emma already, because she's Jean and she understood why Emma did the stuff she did. But again... it really depends on what you call "friendship". Friendship for me is more than a state of non-animosity, it's more than professional respect or even admiration...

[Gray Lensman]

Emma was one of the reasons why Jean Grey became Dark Phoenix?! How can you forgive that?

She forgave Mastermind, granted it was on his deathbed, but still. Mastermind's responsibility for that is much higher than Emma's.

This is without getting into retconning Emma's time with the Hellfire Club to be more sympathetic, or the X-Men having a revolving door of attempting to redeem villains over and over again. And to be honest, when it comes to retconning past crimes to be more sympathetic, one can't hold a bad part for one person in the story against one character in it while accepting the retcon for the second.

[Grinning Soul]

She forgave Mastermind, granted it was on his deathbed, but still. Mastermind's responsibility for that is much higher than Emma's.

True. But since she's forgiven him, do you see Jean being friends with Mastermind?

EDIT: So, basically, same question. Do you think forgive = forget ?

[Gray Lensman]

True. But since she's forgiven him, do you see Jean being friends with Mastermind?

EDIT: So, basically, same question. Do you think forgive = forget ?

Forgive doesn't equal forget. But, one can see the character growth away from pettiness that Emma went through, acknowledge that there is some change there, and not hold falling in love with someone you love against them, especially in an environment where you are seemingly allowed to love two people yourself.

We might not like the whole "group love" angle Marvel is playing here, but ignoring it isn't really an option anymore. The clues are just too blatant, or as they say, the subtext has become.....text.

[Grinning Soul]

Forgive doesn't equal forget. But, one can see the character growth away from pettiness that Emma went through, acknowledge that there is some change there, and not hold falling in love with someone you love against them, especially in an environment where you are seemingly allowed to love two people yourself.

We might not like the whole "group love" angle Marvel is playing here, but ignoring it isn't really an option anymore. The clues are just too blatant, or as they say, the subtext has become.....text.

Well... it has nothing to do with pettiness or holding someone falling in love with your spouse against them. It has nothing to do with the poliamory stuff either.

I'm sorry. I guess this is the kind of thing that either a person gets it or they don't. People see relationships in a different way and I find that if I argue this too much it might come across as I see my way as the right one and everyone else is wrong.

If you want to talk more about it, if you're curious about my perspective, feel free to PM me.

[Gray Lensman]

Well... it has nothing to do with pettiness or holding someone falling in love with your spouse against them. It has nothing to do with the poliamory stuff either.

I'm sorry. I guess this is the kind of thing that either a person gets it or they don't. People see relationships in a different way and I find that if I argue this too much it might come across as I see my way as the right one and everyone else is wrong.

If you want to talk more about it, if you're curious about my perspective, feel free to PM me.

I can understand differences even if I don't personally subscribe to them. Although I also hold fictional characters to a different standard than real people - comic book characters often have an unwritten rule that first meetings involve trying to stab, blast, and smash each other into pulp, only to become fast friends later. In reality, anyone who went off half cocked like that against me would never under any circumstances be someone I could tolerate, much less befriend.

If you are familiar with Stat Trek, the Deep Space Nine series transforms a side character into a bonified hero, even though in his backstory he was basically an alien version of Hans Landa from Inglorious Bastards. Because in fiction the audience typically doesn't hold the characters to the same standards they would for actual real world people either.

[Grinning Soul]

I can understand differences even if I don't personally subscribe to them. Although I also hold fictional characters to a different standard than real people - comic book characters often have an unwritten rule that first meetings involve trying to stab, blast, and smash each other into pulp, only to become fast friends later. In reality, anyone who went off half cocked like that against me would never under any circumstances be someone I could tolerate, much less befriend.

If you are familiar with Stat Trek, the Deep Space Nine series transforms a side character into a bonified hero, even though in his backstory he was basically an alien version of Hans Landa from Inglorious Bastards. Because in fiction the audience typically doesn't hold the characters to the same standards they would for actual real world people either.

I love Star Trek. I'm watching Deep Space Nine (season 6) and Voyager (season 5) now and The Next Generation movies, in chronological order. And while I agree with what you're saying about fictional characters... *sigh* Then again, it's not about that either.

Look, really, sorry if I'm being annoying. I think you're open-minded enough for me want to discuss this with *you*, but not here. I really don't want to start an argument with other people on this thread who might jump on my throat because of my opinion. It drains my energy away and they're simply *not* worth it.

It's really hard for me to express stuff that has to do with personal convictions in a way that doesn't come across as I'm being judgemental of people who disagree with me. And I'm really not. But someone might get triggered and that's all it takes for some people to feel they're entitled to be hostile.

I'm asking questions because I'm genuinely curious about how people see this matter.

[Mercury]

Mercury the list is on point and a fantastic depiction of Jean but is that Knull sarcasm?

Because she was on the ground drooling by an overload and Knull wasn't even damaged by that in the slightest

And our friendship arrives at a point similar to where it began…😂

I feel I’ve gone over this with you ad nauseam. She bypassed Knull’s defenses to communicate with Dylan and the rest of the team she later coordinated. Moreover, she penetrated and ransacked Knull’s mind and he wasn't able to stop or even attack her. To be clear, she wasn't overwhelmed because Knull went on the defense but because of the levels of darkness AND light she witnessed. She also never drooled or passed out. In fact, she communicated with Silver Surfer right after.

[Spiderfan001]

Just a silly game, really. Each round one mutant gets eliminated. Who wins? That's all.

EDITED: the actual thread for this round is here: https://www.reddit.com/r/xmen/commen..._after_barely/

Cool cool

And our friendship arrives at a point similar to where it began…��

I feel I’ve gone over this with you ad nauseam. She bypassed Knull’s defenses to communicate with Dylan and the rest of the team she later coordinated. Moreover, she penetrated and ransacked Knull’s mind and he wasn't able to stop or even attack her. To be clear, she wasn't overwhelmed because Knull went on the defense but because of the levels of darkness AND light she witnessed. She also never drooled or passed out. In fact, she communicated with Silver Surfer right after.

Again symbiotes don't have a anti-TP field and Knull def. doesn't.Entering a mind that is featless and has other TP's who can sense him as well isn't overpowering said person.Specially since she couldn't find any weakness and collapsed under the sheer info she witnessed.

Not to mention on top of the already weakend state Knull was in after lossing in connection to the celestial Jean's feat was right after Dylan attacked him causing him pain and loosing control of the symbiotes.Jean even says, "that's where I come in".Why wouldn't she attack Knull before if she could?She was getting Dylan to do his thing before she could get in.

Btw the pain causing loss of symbiotes is consistent, Thor caused grendel(one of Knull's top symbiotes) so much pain that Knull felt it and that pain caused him to loose control of a million symbiotes.Now that would be a feat.

And Pretty sure Surfer got in contact w/ her

Hope we're still cool

[Mercury]

I think you're open-minded enough for me want to discuss this with *you* ...

I know this wasn't directed at me—I know you know that accept and respect your opinion—but here is some food for thought: Some people might consider absolute and non-negotiable restrictions placed on who Jean could and would consider a friend close-minded by definition.

[Mercury]

Again symbiotes don't have a anti-TP field and Knull def. doesn't.Entering a mind that is featless and has other TP's who can sense him as well isn't overpowering said person.Specially since she couldn't find any weakness and collapsed under the sheer info she witnessed.

Then it seems to me he’s not much of a “god,” which is what he is classified as. Also, why wasn’t he able to take control of her the way he did others?

Not to mention on top of the already weakend state Knull was in after lossing in connection to the celestial Jean's feat was right after Dylan attacked him causing him pain and loosing control of the symbiotes.Jean even says, "that's where I come in".Why wouldn't she attack Knull before if she could?She was getting Dylan to do his thing before she could get in.

I assume she didn’t attack first because her form of attack—i.e., psychic—could have harmed the others, but that’s just my guess.

Btw the pain causing loss of symbiotes is consistent, Thor caused grendel(one of Knull's top symbiotes) so much pain that Knull felt it and that pain caused him to loose control of a million symbiotes.Now that would be a feat.

This only reinforces my point above.

And Pretty sure Surfer got in contact w/ her

Her eyes opened and glowed in her signature pink colo before Silver Surfer acknowledged that he heard her.

Hope we're still cool

Always! 😘

[Grinning Soul]

I know this wasn't directed at me—I know you know that accept and respect your opinion—but here is some food for thought: Some people might consider absolute and non-negotiable restrictions placed on who Jean could and would consider a friend close-minded by definition.

And they'd be entitled to that...

[thjan]

I don't want them to be friends. I just want them to be professional around each other. And that includes *no* snarky remarks.

I wish I could repeat it like a mantra to every writer (not just comic book ones): adult women do *not* talk like that!

Yes, thank you! The way Emma talks to( or talks down to) everyone is awful. She should really have barely any real friends the way she treats people.

Do you think it impossible or unrealistic for Jean and Emma's relationship to evolve into an actual friendship?

I think it is unrealistic. Mutual respect and tolerance I can understand but true friendship? No way. People that don't like each other can still work well together for the greater good though. I don't know why it has to go any further than that. What is this need so many writers and fans have for everyone to be lovey dovey and bestest friends with Emma Frost of all people. I am already bothered by the friendship Kitty has developed with her. Storm, Jean, and Kitty should be able to maintain a good working relationship with her, but nothing beyond that. Emma Frost is not that lovable, everyone! If she existed in real life no one would like her superior attitude or her underhanded ways.

This exactly. I don't want Jean to be friend with Emma after all the suffering she has caused her.
They can be professional and that's it.

Yep, and even forgetting all the hurt and suffering she caused Jean, they are just too different to be friends. Emma is abrasive, condescending, and too morally dubious ON TOP of all the crap she has pulled over the years.

Haters have been trying to eliminate Jean for rounds. If you think this kind of poll is fun (or you're like me and once you help out you keep doing it until it's over), please, vote another mutant out to help our girl survive another round:

https://strawpoll.com/sb4bz9c6a

Yeah, I have been participating in these polls. I don't understand why so many people are after Jean in the comments. Where does all the hate come from? She was unfortunately dead for most of the last 20 years already and she is a great and actually nice and caring character. We need more of that in the X-Men. My favorite X-Man, Gambit, is getting a lot of bad comments too. I am hoping he at least makes it to the top 10, but he does have a lot of haters sadly. It seems people either love or hate him.

For me it's not really a matter of suffering that was inflicted. I just would not buy that friendship no matter how well written it could be. I take friendships *very* seriously. True friendship for me, is even more important than romantic love. So much so I could never fall for someone who wasn't a friend. My partner is my best friend and if we ever split, he'll continue to live in my heart and be one of the most important person in my life.

Really curious: do you think forgive = forget?

I'm sure Jean can and has forgiven Emma already, because she's Jean and she understood why Emma did the stuff she did. But again... it really depends on what you call "friendship". Friendship for me is more than a state of non-animosity, it's more than professional respect or even admiration...

Exactly. Very well said. I can't even add anything to this lol.

[thechronic92]

Kitty went from one of the few people allowed to stand up against Emma to being one of her biggest cheerleaders. Some writers just can't help themselves.

[Grinning Soul]

Yeah, I have been participating in these polls. I don't understand why so many people are after Jean in the comments. Where does all the hate come from? She was unfortunately dead for most of the last 20 years already and she is a great and actually nice and caring character. We need more of that in the X-Men. My favorite X-Man, Gambit, is getting a lot of bad comments too. I am hoping he at least makes it to the top 10, but he does have a lot of haters sadly. It seems people either love or hate him.

This will sound too philosophical but it's a question that I've been asking myself for most of my life: isn't hatred always irrational?

I'm not talking about dislike or simply being neutral towards something. I'm talking about hate.

Exactly. Very well said. I can't even add anything to this lol.

I guess we came from the same planet, then. :)