Thread Re-Drift: Cyclops, Hope, Phoenix, the Avengers & AvX

[Punisher007]

He SORT OF got what he wanted. He got new mutants, though the depowered ones still are left powerless.

Still, can't help but think simply working together with Wanda and the Avengers would have been a whole lot easier than AvX ended up being for Scott.

Well The Avengers did nothing to really prove themselves worthy of trust during AVX. Cap shows up on the X-Men's home island with hellicarriers and an army of super-powered being, then starts throwing ultimatums around "you will give Hope to us, this is not a negotiation," even after Wolverine told him mere hours before that that wouldn't work. Man, these big events really do tend to make Cap look like a trigger-happy moron don't they? In-character Cap would have been smarter/more reasonable than that (so would Scott for that matter).

[XPac]

Well The Avengers did nothing to really prove themselves worthy of trust during AVX. Cap shows up on the X-Men's home island with hellicarriers and an army of super-powered being, then starts throwing ultimatums around "you will give Hope to us, this is not a negotiation," even after Wolverine told him mere hours before that that wouldn't work. Man, these big events really do tend to make Cap look like a trigger-happy moron don't they? In-character Cap would have been smarter/more reasonable than that (so would Scott for that matter).

Specifically, Logan told Steve that the X-Men wouldn't listen to Cap when Steve suggested that they work together with the X-Men on the issue. And I imagine after Children's Cruasade, Steve likely didn't have a lot of reason to doubt Logan.

But I wouldn't call Steve the trigger happy moron... in both Children's Cruasade and AvX Scott was the one that fired on Steve first, not the other way around. In AvX, even member of Scotts own team were saying that it was Scott who was provoking Steve to act, not the other way around. Though certainly Steve could have been more diplomatic as well.

[Rochedalaix]

Specifically, Logan told Steve that the X-Men wouldn't listen to Cap when Steve suggested that they work together with the X-Men on the issue. And I imagine after Children's Cruasade, Steve likely didn't have a lot of reason to doubt Logan.

But I wouldn't call Steve the trigger happy moron... in both Children's Cruasade and AvX Scott was the one that fired on Steve first, not the other way around. In AvX, even member of Scotts own team were saying that it was Scott who was provoking Steve to act, not the other way around. Though certainly Steve could have been more diplomatic as well.

It doesn't matter what the characters say Steve just showing up on Utopia was the first shot fired and a provocation, and Cyclops and the X-Men would have been justified in not only killing Cap but killing every Avenger on that Hellicarrier.

[dragonmp93]

They didn't actually want him in that specific jail (I presume they would have preferred him in the raft), but we were flat out told they didn't have a say in the matter.

That's what all the politicians says.

He SORT OF got what he wanted. He got new mutants, though the depowered ones still are left powerless.

Still, can't help but think simply working together with Wanda and the Avengers would have been a whole lot easier than AvX ended up being for Scott.

Well, we already know what would have happened if Cyclops had listened to the Captain America and the Avengers; its the future that Cable saw in Avengers: X-sanction.

Specifically, Logan told Steve that the X-Men wouldn't listen to Cap when Steve suggested that they work together with the X-Men on the issue. And I imagine after Children's Cruasade, Steve likely didn't have a lot of reason to doubt Logan.

But I wouldn't call Steve the trigger happy moron... in both Children's Cruasade and AvX Scott was the one that fired on Steve first, not the other way around. In AvX, even member of Scotts own team were saying that it was Scott who was provoking Steve to act, not the other way around. Though certainly Steve could have been more diplomatic as well.

Well, after all, why he shouldnt trust his mutant pet ?.

And the Phoenix Force, as explained by the Avengers:




"In Conclusión: Unlike the Scarlet Witch, no good has ever come from the Phoenix."

[XPac]

That's what all the politicians says.



Well, we already know what would have happened if Cyclops had listened to the Captain America and the Avengers; its the future that Cable saw in Avengers: X-sanction.



Well, after all, why he shouldnt trust his mutant pet ?.

And the Phoenix Force, as explained by the Avengers:




"In Conclusión: Unlike the Scarlet Witch, no good has ever come from the Phoenix."

Truthfully both sides were better off not listening to each other. Cable seemed to feel that not listening to the Avengers was the way to go. And both Breevort and Gillen have stated that had Scott gotten his way, earth would have been destroyed (claims backed by several sources in the books, including Hope herself). So I think it is fair to conclude that the conflict between the X-Men and Avengers was actually necessary to achieve the desired result. Which is fine because it all worked out well for everyone in the end... except for Chuck of course.

As far as the description given by Steve and Stark... given we learn that the Phoenix was destroying every single world in its path towards earth I don't think what they said was entirely unfair at all.

[Mikekerr3]

As far as the description given by Steve and Stark... given we learn that the Phoenix was destroying every single world in its path towards earth I don't think what they said was entirely unfair at all.

At the time yr hey made those lies they had no knowledge of the PF destroying any worlds on the way at all. Unless they were to dumb to know what the word parasitic means or had no clue about how the PF deals with a host they were simply lying their asses off. They even think thee PF is somehow more dangerous with a host and that is either a lie or an incredible amount of stupidity.

[Username taken]

At the time yr hey made those lies they had no knowledge of the PF destroying any worlds on the way at all. Unless they were to dumb to know what the word parasitic means or had no clue about how the PF deals with a host they were simply lying their asses off. They even think thee PF is somehow more dangerous with a host and that is either a lie or an incredible amount of stupidity.

Was Jean Grey's destruction of a planet while possessed by the PF retconned away??

The Phoenix force possessing an individual under certain circumstances IS dangerous.

History has shown that. That's what the whole Trial of Jean Grey was about.

[Mikekerr3]

Was Jean Grey's destruction of a planet while possessed by the PF retconned away??

A long long time ago.

[Username taken]

A long long time ago.

Be it 1 year or a 1,000,000 years ago, it's Marvel cannon.

We don't get to pick and choose what forms cannon, Marvel does.

Jean Grey, Scott Summers and Namor can testify to the dangerous effects of the PF.

Iron Man was 100% correct in highlighting the dangers of the PF.

[gurkle]

I keep going back to the analogy, because it keeps fitting like a glove. It's like a drunk getting behind the wheel of a car and not caring about the consequences, only to end up with blood on their hands.

Not in this universe. Drunk driving is wrong and illegal in our world. Working with Doom and raising the dead are normal and conventional in the Marvel world. Which explains why there are no consequences for it.

The difference is a willingness to accept what we read. Mike, for example, will bring up the same issues and use the same harsh language towards Bishop of the X-Men (or formerly of the X-Men, as he shot the prof and tried to kill a baby and then killed millions of future citizens and good lord is that complicated too).

I have seen him say that. If that's how he enjoys comics, who am I to say he's wrong? But it seems like a depressing way to read comics, letting one moment of bad writing ruin your enjoyment of a character.

There's nothing noble about "willingness to accept what we read" if it makes the experience less fun for us. The rules of this game are that we don't make stuff up out of the blue, but saying "Wanda was possessed" is canon, and "what she did to get possessed was not evil" is a legitimate interpretation of canon. That's all it is, interpreting the canon in ways that make it fun. Just like most of the "Wanda is evil" posters think she's a more interesting character if you interpret her that way.

[ExodusCloak]

Was Jean Grey's destruction of a planet while possessed by the PF retconned away??

The Phoenix force possessing an individual under certain circumstances IS dangerous.

History has shown that. That's what the whole Trial of Jean Grey was about.

That was retconned into being the Phoenix taking the form of Jean Grey in mind and body and only possessing 3/4 of her soul thus not even a complete host. The memories were transferred to the late Jean Grey and she knows of the events from a 3rd persons perspective.



There's also the little matter of this that has yet to be dealt with. Making sure ones own prophecies come to pass by behaving in a particular manner.

[ExodusCloak]

And none of this disproves the fact that the PF is a very dangerous entity under certain circumstances.No one can predict 100% how the PF will act when it possesses a host or when its not with a host.

Lets skip to AvX #6 where Hickman said he was happy to write that issue because it showed 100% that the X-Men were right up until the point where the Avengers attacked Utopia for no reason.

As Reed stated, we can predict that the Phoenix will act violently if you constantly provoke it. Everything was fine until the Avengers kept proding the bear with a flame. The moment the Phoenix retaliated was the moment the Avengers ran under the covers of Wakanda to blame the Phoenix 5.

Also, keep in mind that it's revealed in the tie-ins that the entire time right up to the battle at the end that all the Phoenix 5 were holding back when they were attacked each time.

[XPac]

Lets skip to AvX #6 where Hickman said he was happy to write that issue because it showed 100% that the X-Men were right up until the point where the Avengers attacked Utopia for no reason.

As Reed stated, we can predict that the Phoenix will act violently if you constantly provoke it. Everything was fine until the Avengers kept proding the bear with a flame. The moment the Phoenix retaliated was the moment the Avengers ran under the covers of Wakanda to blame the Phoenix 5.

Also, keep in mind that it's revealed in the tie-ins that the entire time right up to the battle at the end that all the Phoenix 5 were holding back when they were attacked each time.

The fact that the P5 were possessed by the Phoenix alone is enough reason to attack them.

I never understood the criticism against the Avengers for attacking the P5. That's the ONLY way to drive the Phoenix out of them and into Hope (which is what everyone INCLUDING the X-men wanted). It's the ONLY way mutants could be restored. And that's ignoring the idea that it was actually saving the P5 from possession. Every single one of them after the fact were THANKFUL that the Phoenix was drive out of them.

WHy shouldn't the Avengers have kept provoking the bear? Is there anyone after the fact, including the P5 themselves, who wouldn't agree that was the right thing to do? Collossus was on his hands and knees thanking god that the Avengers were able to help them.

[ExodusCloak]

The fact that the P5 were possessed by the Phoenix alone is enough reason to attack them.

I never understood the criticism against the Avengers for attacking the P5. That's the ONLY way to drive the Phoenix out of them and into Hope (which is what everyone INCLUDING the X-men wanted). It's the ONLY way mutants could be restored. And that's ignoring the idea that it was actually saving the P5 from possession. Every single one of them after the fact were THANKFUL that the Phoenix was drive out of them.

WHy shouldn't the Avengers have kept provoking the bear? Is there anyone after the fact, including the P5 themselves, who wouldn't agree that was the right thing to do? Collossus was on his hands and knees thanking god that the Avengers were able to help them.

Incorrect there are a million better ways to get rid of the Phoenix then to attack them and make them angry. If they were prepared to move it to Hope, then perhaps the Avengers should have let Hope take the Phoenix from the Phoenix 5 through diplomacy instead of hiding her away?

Sinisters machine is one example in the crossover that managed to capture the Phoenix Force. Unit said the machine was perfection. Maybe Stark should take better notes.

[XPac]

Because there are a million better ways to get rid of the Phoenix then to attack them and make them angry? Perhaps? If they were prepared to move it to Hope, then perhaps they should have let Hope take the Phoenix from them?

Sinisters machine is one example in the crossover that managed to capture the Phoenix Force. Unit said the machine was perfection. Maybe Stark should take better notes.

Hope DID take the Phoenix from them. The way she did it, as we clearly saw, was to beat the crap out of them until it was driven out of them and into her.

There may have been other methods, but this was the one that they found to work. And given the P5 were hunting them anyways, fighting them was necessary.

Bottom line is that conflict could not be avoided here. Hope needed to go with the Avengers to get the training she needed, so the X-Men were going to hunt them no matter what since they correctly concluded that they would use Hope against them.