Thread Re-Drift: Cyclops, Hope, Phoenix, the Avengers & AvX

[XPac]

I don't believe there is any canon way of saying it would not have worked. Hope was able to turn old mutants into her followers. If she ran up and touched everyone on the moon it would have been the equivalent of having 5 lights again.



And again, you're still ignoring the fact that there were less aggressive alternatives. And the act of aggression by the Avengers in AvX #6 was unnecessary if there were these alternatives.

I'm not ignoring that there are potentially less aggresive alternative... I just don't know if any of those alternatives would have worked. Either way the X-Men didn't seem to trying to use them, so it's sort of moot whether or not they would have worked because as far as we can see they weren't even trying.

It's simply a question of whether or not Hope would continue hanging out with the X-Men doing nothing, or whether she would join the Avengers to resolve the matter. The latter option would result in conflict... but it at least was something. Which is more than what we got with her staying with the X-Men. Again, that's why she left. Doing things the X-Men's way simply wasn't working.

[XPac]

I don't recall Hope needing any training from using the Phoenix in that What if?

Given that the PHoenix was driven out of her 3 seconds after she got it, training is kinda moot.

[ExodusCloak]

Given that the PHoenix was driven out of her 3 seconds after she got it, training is kinda moot.

In that What if AvX she had complete control over it. The problem arose when she was trying to let go of that power which is what Spider-Mans words were for. So I believe it's speculation to say the Earth would have been destroyed then and there. We don't actually know what would have happened unless we see it in a What if.

[AcesX1X]

Again, Breevort and Gillen's statements are backed up by Hope herself. She tells you on panel that she can't control it, and says so after the fact as well.

sometimes i worry i can't solve a math problem that looks daunting, but then i sit down to work it out and find out later that i could do it. hope worrying she couldn't control it is moot because she was never given the proper opportunity. again, she was interrupted. often we doubt ourselves despite our abilities.

[XPac]

In that What if AvX she had complete control over it. The problem arose when she was trying to let go of that power which is what Spider-Mans words were for. So I believe it's speculation to say the Earth would have been destroyed then and there. We don't actually know what would have happened unless we see it in a What if.

She seemingly had complete control for like 3 seconds. Again it was IMMEDIATELY driven out of her. We don't know she could have handled it indefinately... we don't know she could have handled it 2 minutes later.

[XPac]

sometimes i worry i can't solve a math problem that looks daunting, but then i sit down to work it out and find out later that i could do it. hope worrying she couldn't control it is moot because she was never given the proper opportunity. again, she was interrupted. often we doubt ourselves despite our abilities.

She was given the opportunity... the Phoenix came for her, and when it became taking her as her host she THEN said she couldn't control it.

And yes, it was interrupted... after she made it clear that she couldn't control it and that it was taking her as a host against her will.

That's the difference we get from her getting the proper training that the books themselves flat out tell us she needed to control it.

[ExodusCloak]

She seemingly had complete control for like 3 seconds. Again it was IMMEDIATELY driven out of her. We don't know she could have handled it indefinately... we don't know she could have handled it 2 minutes later.

Precisely which is why it's erroneous to say that the Earth would have been destroyed etc... particularly when that wasn't the Phoenix's goal in the first place. We don't really know.

[Star_Jammer]

sometimes i worry i can't solve a math problem that looks daunting, but then i sit down to work it out and find out later that i could do it. hope worrying she couldn't control it is moot because she was never given the proper opportunity. again, she was interrupted. often we doubt ourselves despite our abilities.

So all Hope needed was The Count from Sesame Street?

Point being: controlling the PF is likely to be extremely more difficult than 2+2=?

[AcesX1X]

So all Hope needed was The Count from Sesame Street?

Point being: controlling the PF is likely to be extremely more difficult than 2+2=?

likely so. but i had faith in hope even if she didn't. so did phoenix and her lights. so did the x-men. unfortunately, we'll never know because scarlet and the avengers did not.

[Agent Z]

She was with the X-Men the entire time BUT only in AvX 0 did she get the details. So nope there's no way you can extrapolate that she would not have learnt that with the X-Men. The only training she required was "with great power comes great responsibility." Which is what Spider-Man was meant to tell her.

And you have yet to answer that there were better options. Other options like Sinisters machine. Which is the most important point here. Conflict wasn't the only solution and the Avengers went and made things worse.



The story was very clear that she was not possessed before receiving the life force. Which is why having a sudden jump in power levels was a better out then seeking out the dark magic with consequences. Someone already made the point to you before, you can drive really fast every day and get away with until the day you don't and kill someone and then you're in big trouble.

Did the X-men have Sinister's machine on hand or was it out of their reach at the time? Also you ignore that the Phoenix was immolating planets on its way to Earth.

[Star_Jammer]

likely so. but i had faith in hope even if she didn't. so did phoenix and her lights. so did the x-men. unfortunately, we'll never know because scarlet and the avengers did not.

I'm confused. Were the Lights present with her on the moon? Weren't some of them at the JGS and not Utopia, as well? Wasn't one of them dead? Did the X-Men know that she needed them? Did Hope? Didn't Unit purposely sabotage the whole situation?

[Star_Jammer]

I wonder if the planets the Phoenix destroyed on its way to Earth tried to appeal to it diplomatically before getting blown up...

Hindsight is only 20/20, as they say.

[ExodusCloak]

I wonder if the planets the Phoenix destroyed on its way to Earth tried to appeal to it diplomatically before getting blown up...

Hindsight is only 20/20, as they say.

I already quotes like 12 series (which included future knowledge) indicating the Phoenix was not going to destroy Earth prior to AvX. Too bad Wolverine did not share that information with the Avengers.

As for those other planets well you cannot destroy the Phoenix because then the Universe dies. And if you tried to stop it from doing it's job the universe would die too. And that's canon. It's not a person, it's not even a being it's a force. I can't recall an instance where someone made the Phoenix Force do something it never planned on doing in the first place.

[Agent Z]

I already quotes like 12 series (which included future knowledge) indicating the Phoenix was not going to destroy Earth prior to AvX. Too bad Wolverine did not share that information with the Avengers.

The fact that it was destroying planets (and has been portrayed as being dangerous in its convoluted past) was more than enough reason to have the Avengers panicking. Nothing the Phoenix did prior to its coming to Earth suggested it had benevolent intentions. For crying out loud, the first time the X-Men encountered it, the thing ate a star. I guess volatile cosmic entities are A-OK as long as they harm anyone except mutants.

[AcesX1X]

For crying out loud, the first time the X-Men encountered it, the thing ate a star.

actually it's misinformation like that which panicked POTUS and had him scramble an unprovoked assault on utopia.

the first time the x-men encountered phoenix, she healed the ruptured fabric of the universe and saved everything in existence.