Tom King Ranks The Batfamily By Fighting Skills

[Aioros22]

We have no idea how good current Cass is. On the one hand, Batman says she would beat him in an all out fight. On the other hand, she got tagged by Jason frigging Todd. Then again, in both continuities, its made clear that Cass doesn't ever go all out, or else she'd kill her opponents in less than a second. The only time I can ever recall her going all out was in Batgirl #73, during her final fight with Shiva.

AKA, the time Shiva got completely curbstopmed.

Jason "freaking awesome" Todd is someone that ever since coming back has had the sort of training to do what he did and unlike characters like Dick Grayson will go for the kill if need be. But sure I get that it can frustate Cass fans when it lasts more than a scond

I like that fight because it pays off to both`s rep instead of dropping it off.

[UnderTheRedHood]

Cass Does Ridiculous Stuff True and thats why I love her I've pretty much just accepted the fact that she is the super ninja of the batfamily but what I can't understand is how damian a 10 year old manages to do half the stuff he does to bigger people

Damian Owns Miltary.jpg


Or an untrained duke and the ''we are robin kids'' managed to go up against giant talons and survived

The Batverse can be odd sometimes.

[Rac7d*]

Cass Does Ridiculous Stuff True and thats why I love her I've pretty much just accepted the fact that she is the super ninja of the batfamily but what I can't understand is how damian a 10 year old manages to do half the stuff he does to bigger people

Damian Owns Miltary.jpg


Or an untrained duke and the ''we are robin kids'' managed to go up against giant talons and survived

The Batverse can be odd sometimes.

if your gonna bother to train a 7 year old you train him to kill adults

How would Cass do agasint x23

[Fergus]

Cass Does Ridiculous Stuff True and thats why I love her I've pretty much just accepted the fact that she is the super ninja of the batfamily but what I can't understand is how damian a 10 year old manages to do half the stuff he does to bigger people

Damian Owns Miltary.jpg


Or an untrained duke and the ''we are robin kids'' managed to go up against giant talons and survived

The Batverse can be odd sometimes.

I just take it all with a huge pinch of because comics. It ridiculous but comics are ridiculous.... and Fun

[Godlike13]

There is a lot Damian can't do because of his size, and he has been spanked many of times because he is a kid. While there are times where creators might get carried away there are just as many times where he's put in check. Characters in general shouldn't be infallible or unbeatable, let alone children.

[Agent Z]

There is a lot Damian can't do because of his size, and he has been spanked many of times because he a kid. While there are times where creators might get carried away there are just as many times where he's put in check. Characters in general shouldn't be infallible or unbeatable, let alone children.

There is also a lot Cass can't do because of the limits of her upbringing. None of the Batfamily is infallible. As for unbeatable, she's as unbeatable as any protagonist in comics.

[dancj]

From the actual comics we've read.

You see the bullets already in motion, and she moves out of the way, many times.
<snip>
I could go on, but these examples suffice.

Yeah - I can't argue with those. (Except possibly the first one. The bullet close to her head is only shown in her "mind palace", not real life, so we don't really know how close it got)

They might have already been posted in the thread, but my work's firewall blocked them in all but the third example - and in that one, the storytelling was so bad I couldn't work it out. How did the bullet wind up in front of the guy's face?

I'd put that sort of stuff down to bad storytelling on writer and/or artist's part rather than true superhuman speed.

[Sharpandpointies]

We have no idea how good current Cass is. On the one hand, Batman says she would beat him in an all out fight. On the other hand, she got tagged by Jason frigging Todd. Then again, in both continuities, its made clear that Cass doesn't ever go all out, or else she'd kill her opponents in less than a second. The only time I can ever recall her going all out was in Batgirl #73, during her final fight with Shiva.

Which is what I mean by 'Current Cass is nowhere near that level'. Current Cass also stands in front of four guys armed with dart guns, guys she supposedly could body-read, and is fully prepared...and they shoot her full of darts. Whereas other Batfamily characters (and herself) are getting shot at by groups of people with automatic weapons and not get hit thanks to their movement.

*sighs* Really, the 'skill levels' of the Batfamily these days are nowhere consistent. Cass is said to be the best, doesn't show it, struggles against David Cain who gets beat up off-panel by Grayson when Grayson gets serious, etc.

She can do that when she grows up. Doing it at six to actual masters is silly. Certain rules still aplly to fictional universes, such as a toodler of six is yet to be developded phsycally, bone structure and mentally to pull some stunts.

It's comics. They have stuff like pressure points that paralyze people. Cass gets shot repeatedly by David Cain as part of her 'training' (when she's a child) to take a bullet without flinching. It causes no lasting damage. Damian slams around groups of grown men. Etc.

Again, DC goes by the idea that sufficient training can produce impossible results. Cass' level of training outdoes pretty much EVERYONE'S (outside of Karate Kid), starting when she was a toddler. That she is repeatedly shown to do insane things (knock down Bronze Tiger, kick around David Cain, casually stomp groups of large, trained men armed with knives) when she is six to eight years old (at eight, tearing out a man's throat with her fingers as well) is...comics. And meant to demonstrate the character's capabilities.

And there`s that. Sure, Batman learning all that is ridiculous but he isn`t showing us the results of it as a toodler. He`s doing it after he dons the mask.

My point on that is that Cass' tremendous, focused learning from pretty much birth allowing her to do absolutely insane things like dodge bullets after they've been fired (amongst other insane feats she has) is really no worse than Batman being either the best or the second best in everything in the world, after starting his work in his early teens.

One might argue that Cass dodging bullets is a step upward in physicality from what Batman can do, and it is. But again...focused training on nothing but combat (versus Bruce's far more wide-range of training), in a universe where a guy who knows a galaxy's worth of martial arts - and has no actual meta-ability - can compete with Kryptonians.

[Aahz]

Again, DC goes by the idea that sufficient training can produce impossible results. Cass' level of training outdoes pretty much EVERYONE'S (outside of Karate Kid), starting when she was a toddler. That she is repeatedly shown to do insane things (knock down Bronze Tiger, kick around David Cain, casually stomp groups of large, trained men armed with knives) when she is six to eight years old (at eight, tearing out a man's throat with her fingers as well) is...comics. And meant to demonstrate the character's capabilities.

But what doesn't make sense, even by comic book logic is that Bronze Tiger is supposed to be roughly on the same level as Shiva and Richarad Dragon, that Cass can take down a guy of this calibre at the age of 6 just doesn't work (whet also makes no sense that Tiger was allready a member of the league of assassins when Cass was 6 but that is an other problem).

[Herowatcher]

I tried to get through the whole thread, but there is too much.

Once again Bette Kane is shunned by the Bat-writers (and this thread)...this list isn't nearly complete unless she's in it.

So here's a more accurate list than Tom King's....IMO.

1. Cassandra
2. Bruce
3. Dick
4. Kate
5. Damian
6. Helena
7. Jason
8. Bette
9. Tim
10. Babs
11. Stephanie
12. Lucas

[millernumber1]

I still maintain that the "Cass can dodge bullets after they are fired" thing is just exaggerated storytelling by the artist - I do not think they are actually claiming she can move faster than the speed of sound. I just don't buy it at all.

[Aahz]

I tried to get through the whole thread, but there is too much.

Once again Bette Kane is shunned by the Bat-writers (and this thread)...this list isn't nearly complete unless she's in it.

So here's a more accurate list than Tom King's....IMO.

1. Cassandra
2. Bruce
3. Dick
4. Kate
5. Damian
6. Helena
7. Jason
8. Bette
9. Tim
10. Babs
11. Stephanie
12. Lucas

I don't see Bette above Tim Barbara and Steph, and Jason and Luke belong imo much higher on the list.

[dancj]

I still maintain that the "Cass can dodge bullets after they are fired" thing is just exaggerated storytelling by the artist - I do not think they are actually claiming she can move faster than the speed of sound. I just don't buy it at all.

Me neither. We used to have a "Rumbles" board here, and the rules on there were that in any argument over what a character could do, what is shown in the art always takes priority over what is stated in the text. I never really went there, but to me that was always a bit too hard-line.

[Caivu]

Me neither. We used to have a "Rumbles" board here, and the rules on there were that in any argument over what a character could do, what is shown in the art always takes priority over what is stated in the text. I never really went there, but to me that was always a bit too hard-line.

It's still there, and unless something has changed since I last went there, Cass is actually the only non-meta character allowed to be a bullet-timer. I agree about the rules being to hardline (and maybe even a bit pedantic), though.

[Assam]

I tried to get through the whole thread, but there is too much.

Once again Bette Kane is shunned by the Bat-writers (and this thread)...this list isn't nearly complete unless she's in it.

So here's a more accurate list than Tom King's....IMO.

1. Cassandra
2. Bruce
3. Dick
4. Kate
5. Damian
6. Helena
7. Jason
8. Bette
9. Tim
10. Babs
11. Stephanie
12. Lucas

While Bette is definitely underappreciated, speaking as someone whose read almost all of her major appearences, I can't say that I could see her contending with the others you've listed here. Using just the people you named, here's how I'd rank them:

1. Cassandra
2. Bruce
3. Dick
4. Jason
5. Tim
6. Steph
7. Damian
8. Babs
9. Helena
10. Kate
11. Luke
12. Bette

9.