Detective Comics #972 Preview / Discussion (Spoilers)

[Caivu]

I'm not sure that Kate joining the Colony should be desperate. I like her being more in control. But...I still defend Steph's plotline in Tec, so I'm probably wrong.

I think it would have to be at least a bit desperate, since if she can't be Batwoman anymore after the fallout of this arc, she has to do something else with her life. If not, she just goes back to being a drunk.

[millernumber1]

I think it would have to be at least a bit desperate, since if she can't be Batwoman anymore after the fallout of this arc, she has to do something else with her life. If not, she just goes back to being a drunk.

Hmm. Interesting idea. I don't think there's really any sign she's going to stop being Batwoman, since she's always been super independent from Bruce.

[Caivu]

Hmm. Interesting idea. I don't think there's really any sign she's going to stop being Batwoman, since she's always been super independent from Bruce.

Yeah, this is where it gets sticky.

The solicit for #975 says "Will Batman allow her to continue bearing his symbol after everything she has done?", which is just laughable. If she truly believes she was in the right here (as the solicit also indicates), she's not going to give that up willingly, and she's certainly not going to care what Batman has to say about it. She never has, so why start now?

[Assam]

I've said this to you before, but yes, the FV is in fact shown to be that good of a manipulator. How else would their plans work if not?

And I've said this to you before, but that means nothing to me. His plans are working because we're told he's a great manipulator, but we never see him manipulating people, outside of Steph, who he didn't even get the results he was hoping for with. I'd LOVE to see how his sales pitches went to the Arkham guards and the people of Gotham.

Uh... I guess the fact that neither of them really wants to kill Clayface means nothing, then?

No. No it does not.

Not in and of itself, maybe, but his remark about how stupid the protestors are coupled with what she knows about Future!Tim... yeah, that's concerning.

The problem there is that I, and I'm not alone here, agree with Tim there. These protestors ARE stupid, like they've come straight out of the Marvel universe.

I totally agree about the manipulator thing. The fact that they split off Steph from the group in their first attack last year proved it for me.

Again though, that's not what they were actually going for. FV clearly expected Steph to actively help them when she showed up at the end of that arc.

I don't think Lonnie will actually murder anyone. He's still, to my mind, on the anti-hero side rather than a villain. I could see him handing the Victim Syndicate over to Batman, though.

The fact that we're at a point where people are thinking that Lonnie might kill them is further proof of how poor a job Tynion has done characterizing him.

I think it would have to be at least a bit desperate, since if she can't be Batwoman anymore after the fallout of this arc, she has to do something else with her life. If not, she just goes back to being a drunk.

The last time she became a drunk, her ex-girlfriend ended up becoming one of the coolest heroes to ever reside in Gotham. So yeah, here's hoping history would repeat itself.

Yeah, this is where it gets sticky.

The solicit for #975 says "Will Batman allow her to continue bearing his symbol after everything she has done?", which is just laughable. If she truly believes she was in the right here (as the solicit also indicates), she's not going to give that up willingly, and she's certainly not going to care what Batman has to say about it. She never has, so why start now?

Do you honestly believe that if Bruce wanted to shut her down, he couldn't? Even if we assumed that Kate was Bruce's equal physically and mentally, which is a massive stretch to begin with, he has a small army and far more resources.

So I'm seeing her taking over the Colony as pretty likely.

[Barbatos666]

I totally agree about the manipulator thing. The fact that they split off Steph from the group in their first attack last year proved it for me.

I think that Steph's worry about Tim is triggered by that comment about "stupid people," but it wasn't a very smooth transition. So I think Tynion just needed another runthrough on that dialogue.



I don't think Lonnie will actually murder anyone. He's still, to my mind, on the anti-hero side rather than a villain. I could see him handing the Victim Syndicate over to Batman, though.



While I don't dislike the Syndicate as much as many, and I actually like how Anarky is being handled (but I have no real connection to previous Anarky, so that probably explains that), I do think that Tynion's decision to refuse any backstory for the First Victim is a serious problem that he'd better fix soon.

I think even Tynion has given up on the Syndicate. Mute, Madame Crow and Mr Noxious might as well not exist and Mudface has barely existed. Clayface is the real antagonist of this storyline. There's just a forced attempt to make us believe that the First Victim is the mastermind which imo isn't working at all. His name doesn't match his mo or personality which doesn't match his visuals which doesn't match his powers. Clayface so far is the best villain of Tynion's run. Goes to show that the classic is still superior to the newbies.

[Man-Thing]

I just wanna know who the First Victim is, beyond yet another take on the Red Hood / Joker story...

[millernumber1]

I think even Tynion has given up on the Syndicate. Mute, Madame Crow and Mr Noxious might as well not exist and Mudface has barely existed. Clayface is the real antagonist of this storyline. There's just a forced attempt to make us believe that the First Victim is the mastermind which imo isn't working at all. His name doesn't match his mo or personality which doesn't match his visuals which doesn't match his powers. Clayface so far is the best villain of Tynion's run. Goes to show that the classic is still superior to the newbies.

I mean, it's clear that the Syndicate was a setup for Clayface's return as villain, but I think the heavy featuring that the First Victim is getting is hopefully a sign that we will find out SOMETHING about their backstory. And I think Tynion would agree that Clayface is better than the Syndicate - that's their purpose, and I think he did a good job of using them for that, except for not giving us any information about FV.

[millernumber1]

I just wanna know who the First Victim is, beyond yet another take on the Red Hood / Joker story...

Same! It's the one thing I agree with most of the people who dislike the Syndicate - they're built up so much, but without anything to back it up.

[Caivu]

And I've said this to you before, but that means nothing to me. His plans are working because we're told he's a great manipulator, but we never see him manipulating people, outside of Steph, who he didn't even get the results he was hoping for with. I'd LOVE to see how his sales pitches went to the Arkham guards and the people of Gotham.

We don't have to see them directly manipulating people, because we see the results of that manipulation.

The problem there is that I, and I'm not alone here, agree with Tim there. These protestors ARE stupid, like they've come straight out of the Marvel universe.

Why is that a problem, though?

The last time she became a drunk, her ex-girlfriend ended up becoming one of the coolest heroes to ever reside in Gotham. So yeah, here's hoping history would repeat itself.

What? Those two things are not related at all. Renee became the Question after Kate became Batwoman.

Do you honestly believe that if Bruce wanted to shut her down, he couldn't? Even if we assumed that Kate was Bruce's equal physically and mentally, which is a massive stretch to begin with, he has a small army and far more resources.

It's not about whether he could or not. It's that Kate's not giving up her role as Batwoman willingly if she believes she's in the right. She doesn't care, and never has, about whether Bruce has a problem with that.

[Barbatos666]

We already have the backstory for all the Syndicate minus their leader. The leader himself will probably get killed and no one will care. I dont think there's more than has already been presented. Revealing the backstory for the FV isn't going to change anything about him at this point. Might as well keep his id a secret. Remember Snyder never divulged the identity of Mr Bloom.

[Denirac]

That seems likely, but in Doomsday Clock #2, Bruce didn't seem to understand why people were protesting, which would be odd unless he gets some kind of amnesia down the line.

Just because Bruce doesnt 'seem' to know why they're protesting, doesnt rule this out. Maybe they stop Protesting for a While before something randomly restarts it.

[Chubistian]

Wait, First Victim is a confirmed man? Personally, depending in the penciller, I haven’t make my mind up about his sex, but lately I’ve been thinking about First Victim as a “she”. It’s going to take me a while to get used to FV as a male hahaha. Maybe I first thought FV was a female, later realized FV was a male and then forgot about it since I never got interested in the character

[Assam]

We don't have to see them directly manipulating people, because we see the results of that manipulation.

The most interesting thing about any manipulator character is HOW they manipulate people. This is part of why the FV is so boring.

Why is that a problem, though?

Because in what's supposed to be a sad, tragic story, having a bunch of nameless idiots contributing to the tragedy only serves to detract from the drama around the characters that matter and distract the reader.

What? Those two things are not related at all. Renee became the Question after Kate became Batwoman.

Twas a joke.

[SixSpeedSamurai]

I also don't like the addition of Azrael to the team. They had a nice, small group of characters that really bonded. Now it's all getting shook up.

I wish they'd go back to the original concept of Azrael, not have him be another Batman light.

[millernumber1]

Wait, First Victim is a confirmed man? Personally, depending in the penciller, I haven’t make my mind up about his sex, but lately I’ve been thinking about First Victim as a “she”. It’s going to take me a while to get used to FV as a male hahaha. Maybe I first thought FV was a female, later realized FV was a male and then forgot about it since I never got interested in the character

No, I don't think FV has a confirmed sex.

We already have the backstory for all the Syndicate minus their leader. The leader himself will probably get killed and no one will care. I dont think there's more than has already been presented. Revealing the backstory for the FV isn't going to change anything about him at this point. Might as well keep his id a secret. Remember Snyder never divulged the identity of Mr Bloom.

I meant FV only, since they're the most important.

I hated Mr. Bloom, too. Honestly, he felt too much like a fake Joker with a plant theme. And I loathe Snyder's Joker.