Is it true that Marvel doesn't have "hero-exclusive" villains?

[Hybrid]

One of my favorite examples of change, and why I hold the classic Thunderbolts in high regard, is that Screaming Mimi and Beetle went from low-level supervillain thugs to genuine good guys as Songbird and Mach-1/IV/X. This turning of a new leaf actually stuck, which doesn't seem to happen in DC all that often.

Which reminds me, if they make a Thunderbolts relaunch, I'd hope for a return to the roots where the Thunderbolts are ex-cons really trying to go legit. Not the later ones where it's just Marvel's Suicide Squad.

[Agent Z]

DC has plenty of examples of this.

Both Vandal Savage and Solomon Grundy began as villains to the Golden Age Green Lantern and then became general DCU villains.

Clock King was introduced as a Green Arrow villain then became one to Batman.

Lady Shiva was originally a Richard Dragon antagonist then became one to Batman. She was also a supporting character in O'Niel's Question.

The demons Blaze and Satanus were originally Superman villains but have also fought Shazam a number of times.

The Queen of Fables was originally a Justice League villain and has been a general rogue for Superman and Wonder Woman.

Deadshot has occasionally been a Green Arrow villain.

Cheshire has appeared in Wonder Woman twice. She was also a Birds of Prey villain.

It happens a lot more thsn you realise.

[Agent Z]

I find I am only selectively interested in DC. It's usually specific characters like Huntress, Batwoman, Jessica Cruz. The one I want to read about right now is Poison Ivy because it was implied that she is planning to become a more heroic type character and possibly the new representative for The Green.

That's the difference I think, those four characters I mentioned in DC are all newer bronze age and later characters and they all change over time, they are allowed to grow and become something different over time.

I find Marvel changes up their character status quo a lot more often, and the characters deal with personal problems almost as much as they deal with villains. Tony is going through a court case where he may not be able to prove he is a person anymore and will have his rights stripped away, Carol was outed as being half Kree and now she has become hated by the general public, Peter is starting to get his career on track finally and possibly even moving his relationship with MJ forward. The X-Men have formed a new nation of Krakoa and their country has become a world economic power comparable to Wakanda and politically independent like Atlantis. Thor has now become the King of Asgard.

I find Marvel characters aren't stuck in a box as much as DC characters. I used to like Batman but now I just find him kind of boring like Superman. They are both stuck in an endless unchanging pattern. There were rumors on the Internet of an African American Batman, do it! Change it up, take the character in a different direction for a couple of years. Jane Foster as Thor was an excellent change to stir the Asgardians up for a bit. Thor's exploration of his own failings helped him become confident to become King of the Asgardians.

I don't like sacred cows, I think it's great to stir things up and change things. I want my favorite characters to have a place in the new status quo somewhere, but I still enjoy when they try new stories with the characters and step out of the nostalgia stories for a while.

I would love it if there was a big change and say Emma Frost joins the Avengers. Thor forms a team for a critical mission in the realms and pulls from all the groups. There are so many ways that things could be mixed up.

Lol, have Superior Spiderman form his own Avengers team, the Superior Avengers, just for fun!

DC does big changes as much as Marvel. The former has been known for legacy characters far longer than the latter. Luthor was also a member of the Justice League for a while.

[Hybrid]

DC has plenty of examples of this.

Both Vandal Savage and Solomon Grundy began as villains to the Golden Age Green Lantern and then became general DCU villains.

Clock King was introduced as a Green Arrow villain then became one to Batman.

Lady Shiva was originally a Richard Dragon antagonist then became one to Batman. She was also a supporting character in O'Niel's Question.

The demons Blaze and Satanus were originally Superman villains but have also fought Shazam a number of times.

The Queen of Fables was originally a Justice League villain and has been a general rogue for Superman and Wonder Woman.

Deadshot has occasionally been a Green Arrow villain.

Cheshire has appeared in Wonder Woman twice. She was also a Birds of Prey villain.

It happens a lot more thsn you realise.

It's great that you can find examples if you search hard enough. Thing is, it's just too few and far-between compared to Marvel doing it all the time. Those examples I listed? Just off the top of my head.

Here are some more:

• Blackheart debuted in a Daredevil comic, but more commonly fights Ghost Rider nowadays. He also pops up in X-Men every now and again.
• Cloak and Dagger's most recent run had Spidey rogue Mr. Negative as the main villain.
• Baron Helmut Zemo debuted as an antagonist to Captain America and Falcon (under the name of the Phoenix). Since becoming the Baron, he's become a general Avengers villain, and then a villain to the Thunderbolts he founded, in particular the replacement leader Hawkeye. Recently, he's menaced the Punisher.
• Madame Masque has historically been an Iron Man villain, but since Fraction's Hawkeye run, has become the nemesis to Kate Bishop.
• The Absorbing Man was and still is a Thor villain, but has tangled with Hulk a lot of the time as well.
• Beetle (Abe Jenkins) was originally a villain to the Fantastic Four (in particular, the Human Torch). He's been an Avengers villain as part of the Masters of Evil, and a fairly regular Spider-Man villain, as well as an occasional Iron Man villain, until he permanently became a good guy as MACH after realizing that being a hero was better in the Thunderbolts.
• Spider-Man's recent Nick Spencer run had him fighting the Thieves' Guild, who usually are exclusive to the X-Men titles (debuting in the Gambit series).
• The Phoenix Force is a major entity in the X-Men comics, and became the driving force of Avengers vs. X-Men. It then migrated over to the Thor titles, having a history with Asgard.
• Alex Wilder was the secret villain of the Runaways, and since coming back to life he antagonized Power Man and Iron Fist.
• Taskmaster debuted in the Avengers, and though he's an Avengers foe, he also antagonizes members individually such as Captain America, Iron Man, Hawkeye, Ant-Man, as well as others like Spider-Man, Spider-Woman, and Daredevil. Heck, he's even had some presence in X-titles, with his longstanding rivalry with Deadpool, and has fought Wolverine, X-23 and Daken. It helps that he's a mercenary for hire, and will fight anyone if he gets paid.
• Deathbird, like Mystique, was a Ms. Marvel villain who migrated to the X-books.
• Mojo and Spiral were and still are antagonists to Longshot, but during his miniseries it was completely disconnected from X-Men until Claremont brought Longshot over afterwards, and thus those two as well, making them X-Men villains.
• The Purple Man was a minor Daredevil villain who eventually became the core archenemy of Jessica Jones.
• Annihilus is a longstanding Fantastic Four villain, but was the main villain of Annihilation where he fought all the cosmic heroes and the ultimate villain for Nova to defeat.

In general, when Marvel introduces a new hero or promotes one from general obscurity, their rogues will be adopted from elsewhere (likely unused at the moment) with a few new ones. I think it works well, as DC often makes up new villains in their case, and rarely are they memorable nor have any impact.

I think it might be reason of tone. DC prides itself in having many smaller settings that fit a different niche, while Marvel is much more connected and lets it all flow together. I mentioned there never being a Wonder Woman comic where she fought Reverse-Flash, and it's easy to figure out why: Wonder Woman is based on Greek mythology and high fantasy, while Reverse-Flash is from the future and has a sci-fi origin, which would make him stick out like a sore thumb. DC is a kitchen sink of science and fantasy, but wants to make sure each side is distinct when possible. Sure, Marvel is also a kitchen sink of science and fantasy, but they never had much of an issue with the idea of Iron Man (an industrialist billionaire playboy in a suit of futuristic power armor) fighting Loki (the Norse God of Mischief) so long as they thought it made a great story.

That's how I see it, anyways.

[Digifiend]

Blackheart was also Miles Morales's first 616 villain and is in today's issue of Champions.

[Agent Z]

It's great that you can find examples if you search hard enough. Thing is, it's just too few and far-between compared to Marvel doing it all the time. Those examples I listed? Just off the top of my head.

Here are some more:

• Blackheart debuted in a Daredevil comic, but more commonly fights Ghost Rider nowadays. He also pops up in X-Men every now and again.
• Cloak and Dagger's most recent run had Spidey rogue Mr. Negative as the main villain.
• Baron Helmut Zemo debuted as an antagonist to Captain America and Falcon (under the name of the Phoenix). Since becoming the Baron, he's become a general Avengers villain, and then a villain to the Thunderbolts he founded, in particular the replacement leader Hawkeye. Recently, he's menaced the Punisher.
• Madame Masque has historically been an Iron Man villain, but since Fraction's Hawkeye run, has become the nemesis to Kate Bishop.
• The Absorbing Man was and still is a Thor villain, but has tangled with Hulk a lot of the time as well.
• Beetle (Abe Jenkins) was originally a villain to the Fantastic Four (in particular, the Human Torch). He's been an Avengers villain as part of the Masters of Evil, and a fairly regular Spider-Man villain, as well as an occasional Iron Man villain, until he permanently became a good guy as MACH after realizing that being a hero was better in the Thunderbolts.
• Spider-Man's recent Nick Spencer run had him fighting the Thieves' Guild, who usually are exclusive to the X-Men titles (debuting in the Gambit series).
• The Phoenix Force is a major entity in the X-Men comics, and became the driving force of Avengers vs. X-Men. It then migrated over to the Thor titles, having a history with Asgard.
• Alex Wilder was the secret villain of the Runaways, and since coming back to life he antagonized Power Man and Iron Fist.
• Taskmaster debuted in the Avengers, and though he's an Avengers foe, he also antagonizes members individually such as Captain America, Iron Man, Hawkeye, Ant-Man, as well as others like Spider-Man, Spider-Woman, and Daredevil. Heck, he's even had some presence in X-titles, with his longstanding rivalry with Deadpool, and has fought Wolverine, X-23 and Daken. It helps that he's a mercenary for hire, and will fight anyone if he gets paid.
• Deathbird, like Mystique, was a Ms. Marvel villain who migrated to the X-books.
• Mojo and Spiral were and still are antagonists to Longshot, but during his miniseries it was completely disconnected from X-Men until Claremont brought Longshot over afterwards, and thus those two as well, making them X-Men villains.
• The Purple Man was a minor Daredevil villain who eventually became the core archenemy of Jessica Jones.
• Annihilus is a longstanding Fantastic Four villain, but was the main villain of Annihilation where he fought all the cosmic heroes and the ultimate villain for Nova to defeat.

In general, when Marvel introduces a new hero or promotes one from general obscurity, their rogues will be adopted from elsewhere (likely unused at the moment) with a few new ones. I think it works well, as DC often makes up new villains in their case, and rarely are they memorable nor have any impact.

I think it might be reason of tone. DC prides itself in having many smaller settings that fit a different niche, while Marvel is much more connected and lets it all flow together. I mentioned there never being a Wonder Woman comic where she fought Reverse-Flash, and it's easy to figure out why: Wonder Woman is based on Greek mythology and high fantasy, while Reverse-Flash is from the future and has a sci-fi origin, which would make him stick out like a sore thumb. DC is a kitchen sink of science and fantasy, but wants to make sure each side is distinct when possible. Sure, Marvel is also a kitchen sink of science and fantasy, but they never had much of an issue with the idea of Iron Man (an industrialist billionaire playboy in a suit of futuristic power armor) fighting Loki (the Norse God of Mischief) so long as they thought it made a great story.

That's how I see it, anyways.

Wonder Woman has fought Reverse Flash. These examples only look few and far between if you don't read DC regularly or have little to no interest in their books. Wonder Woman has also dealt with things other than Greek myth.

Here are more examples:

Dr Destiny was originally a Justice League villain. He later became a villain in Niel Gaiman's Sandman.

The Shade started out as a Flash rogue before becoming a trickster mentor in Robinson's Starman.

Major Force was created as a Captain Atom villain but these days is more known as the guy who killed Alex DeWitt, Kyle Rayner's girlfriend.

Neron, a villain created for the Underworld Unleashed event, was recently in an Apollo and Midnighter book as the antagonist. That isn't even getting into his history with the Flash and Wonder Woman.

Klarion the Witchboy has clashed with Superman Wonder Woman and Young Justice.

The DCU is nowhere near as closed off as you think.

[chamber-music]

I think certain characters benefited from switching to being antagonists to other heroes.

[Lee Stone]

I remember in the mid-‘80s DC started to do this more often.

Blue Devil, Firestorm, Blue Beetle and Booster Gold had several villains pop up from other sources. Or their villains would pop up in other places, such as almost all of Firestorm’s rogues.

And there was the JLI Annual with Joker and the Byrne Superman with Joker.

Deathstroke has gone from Titans villain to Justice League/Batman villain.

At DC, I do see a trend though.
Most often the villains don’t cross over until their parent title no longer exists and the heroes they’re normally associated with are in limbo.

I agree that it’s mostly the shared city that helps this occur.
DC has a problem with this because Gotham and Metropolis are about as well known an Batman and Superman.
They’re not going to just abandon them. I think that’s one reason they were positioned later to be twin cities, so they could have more interaction.

At Marvel there was a situation like this when both Champions and West Coast Avengers we’re in California.
How to explain the villains hopping from NYC to LA?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

In Marvel, it really isn't all that uncommon to see heroes fighting villains who debuted elsewhere and are more associated with others.

It seems to happen more with Marvel than DC, but that doesn't mean it happens as often as some think.

Really, it seems less of a hard rule that this villain must antagonize this hero, and more of a suggestion.

That's exaggerating things I think. In general if you look at comic appearances, i.e. the titles where a character appears and recurs more in, most times you find that villains are locked in to some villains and some titles more than others.

Magneto is an X-Men villain and most of his appearances are in X-Men. There are times where he fights other Marvel characters but at the end of the day he's an X-Men villain. Doctor Doom has by and large appeared in Fantastic Four titles even if he's a prolific Marvel-wide villain. Same with Galactus and others.

And these are just some examples off the top of my head.

Yes but how many of those stories where these villains fought heroes outside their rogues defining stories or led to lasting changes. Very few.

Overall, it seems Marvel is much more flexible with the idea of heroes fighting other people's villains than DC.

DC have always striven to maintain the integrity of top-tier heroes and villains, especially in the case of Batman and Superman. So there has rarely been an interest in developing and packing in other heroes and other villains and building titles around them.

Whereas Marvel has always been keen in doing that.

In DC, I honestly have a hard time naming such instances of heroes and villains of different origins fighting each other outside of big crossovers. The best I can think of is Deathstroke originating in Teen Titans, and menacing them, the various Titans teams, Batman, Nightwing independently, and Green Arrow. Few other characters seem as versatile in DC.

Deathstroke is a piece of trash character, a glorified pedophile, that writers thought was cool. His appearance outside the Teen Titans have generally been jokes, and Identity Crisis is one of the worst pieces of jobbing in comics history and it made the DC Universe a laughing stock.

Anyway...fear and loathing aside...I don't think having rogues fight other heroes and so on, is a badge of honor. It's just different strokes. The times it works sticks out for us so much we forget the times it fails and so on.

[Lee Stone]

Btw, at DC this definitely can become annoying when readers can imagine certain villains having more potential by branching out.
The JLI’s Queen Bee, for example, could’ve been a great Dr. Doom level DCU villain but she was scrapped.
She didn’t get used in full effect until they dug her out of limbo for the YJ cartoon.

[Hybrid]

In fairness, some of these are rather recent. I mean, before Conquest, did Ultron ever appear outside of Avengers and adjacent titles? I can’t think of a story where Ultron went against the Fantastic Four or X-Men, to be honest.

[Lee Stone]

In fairness, some of these are rather recent. I mean, before Conquest, did Ultron ever appear outside of Avengers and adjacent titles? I can’t think of a story where Ultron went against the Fantastic Four or X-Men, to be honest.

https://cmro.travis-starnes.com/detail.php?idvalue=1993

[Hybrid]

Well, I’ll be damned.

[Dark-Jacket]

Also, I know it sounds odd to say, but I really like the way few Marvel heroes can just fly as a superpower. Stan Lee said he hated how superheroes can fly for no reason, and set out to make sure everyone had some kind of unique mode of travel. It really does make characters feel unique, whether they hold a super hammer, use jet propulsion, swing on a web, have a suit of armor, ride on an object, glide in combination with sonic powers, leap great distances, have a wingsuit, a magical artifact, or by surrounding themselves with energy. Compare this to half the DC heroes flying just 'cause, or in the case of the Flash, running.

To illustrate:

Attachment 86551
Attachment 86552

To be fair, you'are putting a picture of avengers world an hickman story arc against the DC Rebirth promo image which included all of the DC universe.

Let's take a look at the Morrison era league (14+ members)


You only got Superman Wonderwoman and Martian Manhunter flying just because. Green Lantern had his ring. Zauriel his wings. Steel his turbo rocket. Orion his Glider. And that's all.
Back to the topic,

DC universe is bigger. (And that's something I prefer). But heroes are facing villains they are not used to.
Lex Luthor has been faced by Batman/Bruce Wayne many times.
Deathstroke has take on Titans but also the League numerous times. Same for Prometheus. The injustice Gang is a basic switch of heroes and villains. The Joker pops up in Metropolis quite often.
Blackest Night had all heroes draft to face a green lantern situation.

Green Arrow was facing the Riddler and Deathstroke in Batman Universe last week. ^^
The power levels are insane in the DCU hence why you can't switch that easy between characters. Batman may be great, if he faces Reverse-Flash unprepared he'll just get curb stomp. Flash would have troubles facing Black Manta or Ocean Master at the bottom of the ocean. And so on. For what it's worth, the arrowverse switches much more villains.

[Zero Hunter]

In fairness, some of these are rather recent. I mean, before Conquest, did Ultron ever appear outside of Avengers and adjacent titles? I can’t think of a story where Ultron went against the Fantastic Four or X-Men, to be honest.

One of the craziest Acts of Vengeance crossover issues. Daredevil and the Inhumans taking on Ultron.