Avengers 20, we are at peak Aaron people!

[Biclopcicle]

Bruce Banner did not take his own life. He gave Hawkeye what he thought was a silver bullet point f he was ever going to lose control.

Hawkeye chose to use it because he and Carol Danvers were getting marching orders from some prophetic nonsense man.

And all they did was make it come true in the end.

Worst OC ever. He was literally Poochie the Inhuman

[jwatson]

Bruce Banner did not take his own life. He gave Hawkeye what he thought was a silver bullet point f he was ever going to lose control.

Hawkeye chose to use it because he and Carol Danvers were getting marching orders from some prophetic nonsense man.

And all they did was make it come true in the end.

So i guess people go through with assisted suicide didn't decide to take their own lives as well? If i hand someone a gun and say if i cross that street kill me with this gun and i start to cross that street and they shoot me. I kind of took my own life.

[Prof. Warren]

Ah, the old "forcing a minority to prove their bona fides when they don't automatically agree with everything you say card"

Always funny when coupled with a quote that never happened. That took some gusto. Bravo good sir.

Your history of complaining about perceived forced messages in comics allows for some reading between the lines.

It doesn't work that way...unless you are a telepath. Are you telepathic? Otherwise we just have to form opinions.

It doesn't work that way? Because you seem very sure in claiming that Aaron doesn't believe what he writes.

Even without the benefit of telepathy, I think it's much more easy to argue that a professional writer - of some measure - is intellectually and emotionally invested in the sincerity of his work rather than he's simply devoting his creative life to peddling some hollow agenda.

Why not both?

Because if people understood that everything starts with character rather than the other way around, they'd spend less time getting irate about supposed agendas.

[Ptrvc]

So i guess people go through with assisted suicide didn't decide to take their own lives as well? If i hand someone a gun and say if i cross that street kill me with this gun and i start to cross that street and they shoot me. I kind of took my own life.

Not what happened though. Maybe if you headed back inside and your buddy shot you in the back of the head because some weird guy made a prophecy that one day you might cross the street at some point.

Because Bendis told him so.

[Prof. Warren]

Exactly. When you are literally injecting things into a character’s history that simply did not happen and retroactively changing the way that a character thinks and feels, that is a retcon. The entire thing of this issue where Aaron tries to make Jen out to be a victim this whole time and that it always bothered her despite the character’s entire history saying otherwise is a retcon. Now if it had been something new that came after the trauma from Civil War II, it’d be one thing but that’s not what Aaron wrote here.

This is like when people complain when a woman waits to come forward to talk about sexual harassment. "If it really bothered you, why did you wait so long to say something? You must be faking or just out for attention."

There's no timetable on this sort of thing. And many women go through life saying nothing for years before speaking out. Usually because this is the kind of reaction that greets them.

[Ptrvc]

This is like when people complain when a woman waits to come forward to talk about sexual harassment. "If it really bothered you, why did you wait so long to say something? You must be faking or just out for attention."

There's no timetable on this sort of thing. And many women go through life saying nothing for years before speaking out. Usually because this is the kind of reaction that greets them.

Comics aren't real. This was not in the original stories. Aaron added this in retroactively.

This is, by definition, a retcon.

[jwatson]

Not what happened though. Maybe if you headed back inside and your buddy shot you in the back of the head because some weird guy made a prophecy that one day you might cross the street at some point.

Because Bendis told him so.

Oh i agree that it was stupid. But at the time Carol and others were dumbly going around locking everybody up over those prophecies which i still feel was one of the dumbest stories ever. Bruce gave Hawkeye the weapon to take him out and played just a big a part in his own death as anyone else. That is what SheHulk was so angry about. You won't get any argument from me it didn't make a lick of sense, but it's what happened.

[Kurolegacy]

This is like when people complain when a woman waits to come forward to talk about sexual harassment. "If it really bothered you, why did you wait so long to say something? You must be faking or just out for attention."

There's no timetable on this sort of thing. And many women go through life saying nothing for years before speaking out. Usually because this is the kind of reaction that greets them.

These are comics where we are able to see the characters’ thoughts and see them in their most private of moments. They aren’t real people and don’t have a will of their own. That kind of argument in comparing them to real people in that way never works because of that fact. What they do however have history which should be drawn on not detracted from.

[jwatson]

Comics aren't real. This was not in the original stories. Aaron added this in retroactively.

This is, by definition, a retcon.

If we go by that logic the best selling hulk book in years and the best one i've ever read is complete and utter trash. We are now suppose to believe the hulk's sole purpose is to protect banner. That whole book is FILLED with retroactive additives to Bruce's story. Filled to the brim. Yet it's absolutely awesome.

[kilderkin]

Don't quite know exactly - but it sure sounds intriguing!



To not believe that people viewed in a sexualized manner can't take offense to it simply because it's prevalent and because, well, it's always been that way is an erroneous attitude. To diminish that point of view as a "minuscule" issue because you deem it to be is the kind of dismissive "get over it attitude" that much of the MeToo movement is a response to.



Every reader has a right to their own opinion.

But this isn't "garbage" on any level (even if you don't like it, there's a level of craft that can't be ignored) and it doesn't disrespect the character. If anything it shows that Aaron has given Jen a lot of thought and is taking her on a different journey.

You can choose not to like it and not to read it but other fans will choose the opposite. Nobody is forcing anybody to do anything. The hyperbole that some fans employ when they personally don't like something, taking it upon themselves to speak for "the fans", is ridiculous. Your displeasure is your own. You're entitled to it but no one speaks universally for what the "fans" like or don't like.



And the problem with Ulik being smitten with Jen because she beat the snot out of him is what, exactly?

Ulik is reacting to Jen's strength, not her looks, which is what Jen would want.



I think when anyone complains about a "faux woke act", I think we know where we stand.



That's not what he's saying at all. He's not invalidating any previous characterizations. He's building on what's come before and bringing a perspective on the character that wouldn't have been possible previously because the culture was in a different place.



The Clone Saga was never classic. Ever.

And Aaron's Thor run has gone on long enough and sustained popularity and critical raves long enough to not be considered a novelty.

I know Jane haters want to regard Aaron's run as a novelty because they don't want to give Jane's time as Thor any respect but Aaron's run has earned its accolades.



It will, actually. It's a run that's going to be perpetually be found in Omnibuses.



Yes, clearly Aaron is having a bit of fun there.



But it does speak to the fact that a work is resonating with a large number of people.

Especially when that work spreads over many years and still continues to hang on to - and expand on - an audience.

Doesn't mean that everyone has to like it but it does mean that there's something substantial there that can't be shrugged off.

Never said it wasn't well received by some, so is the big Mac but for all it's applauds, it's not selling especially more than say JMS sold, and wotr isn't doing better really than previous Thor centric books.

Sure it's popular, but it's not especially popular.

[Ptrvc]

If we go by that logic the best selling hulk book in years and the best one i've ever read is complete and utter trash. We are now suppose to believe the hulk's sole purpose is to protect banner. That whole book is FILLED with retroactive additives to Bruce's story. Filled to the brim. Yet it's absolutely awesome.

Ah. It was there's the run, isn't it?

I never said a retcon was necessarily a bad thing.

Heck when Mantlo added on the child abuse angle it was a blatant retcon. It was also the best thing to add to the character since the rage transforming and madder=stronger.

The difference is nobody was going around accusing folks of downplaying the horrors of child abuse because the didn't like the retcon.

[Biclopcicle]

This is like when people complain when a woman waits to come forward to talk about sexual harassment. "If it really bothered you, why did you wait so long to say something? You must be faking or just out for attention."

There's no timetable on this sort of thing. And many women go through life saying nothing for years before speaking out. Usually because this is the kind of reaction that greets them.

This isn't equivalent because we had access to her inner thoughts, this being a comic book and all. Like I said earlier, if you want to show an evolution of thought, that's fine. But Aaron has yet to demonstrate that

[Anthony W]

Your history of complaining about perceived forced messages in comics allows for some reading between the lines.

Oh, so "reading between the lines" is a privilege that you can grant yourself but not for others? Do as I say not as I do?

It doesn't work that way? Because you seem very sure in claiming that Aaron doesn't believe what he writes.

"Otherwise we just have to form opinions" I'm forming options based on the issue. You are doing the same thing, but feel that only you should have that right.

Even without the benefit of telepathy, I think it's much more easy to argue that a professional writer - of some measure - is intellectually and emotionally invested in the sincerity of his work rather than he's simply devoting his creative life to peddling some hollow agenda.

That's the spirit. It's an opinion, so glad that you stopped trying to pass them off as fact.

Because if people understood that everything starts with character rather than the other way around, they'd spend less time getting irate about supposed agendas.

Spoke too soon :/

[InformationGeek]

Oh my god, this issue is getting my headache. Plus side though, I'll have a lot to write about for an article.

There's just so much to unpack here that it needs a full analysis and detailed thoughts about what went wrong.

[Overhazard]

Hmmm, I'm not entirely sure how to feel. On one hand, I do understand the argument, toning down the fanservice, making Jen a more serious character. I also think that maybe what Aaron is doing is a man's interpretation of what a strong woman is, which is also what Byrne did, and Peter David, and Slott, and all the other men who have written Jen before. Aarons is just a different interpretation is all. we all don't necessarily agree with it.

A question I have though, is the issue her personality or her body? For me its her personality, Jen's just cribbing the savage hulk, maybe if she still acted like her old self, or at least a semblance of it, then the reception would go over a little better. I know about the trauma she went through, but I don't think Aaron has really brought it up. Or maybe he has, I don't know.