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  1. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by MouserGrey View Post
    I was thinking the same thing and would love it! Having the last two or three issues showing our heroes how not to f@#k up. I am pretty sure that is not the case however.
    Can't be that. The Bridge shows what happened / will happen at Incursion point but in this story arc we saw many other things, Beast and Banner talking, Tony with Black Swan, Tony and Reed, Black Panter talking to the former Black Panthers and so on.

  2. #107
    Dark Dimension Clea's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TresDias View Post
    How are any of us supposed to discuss this with you when you won't even talk about the actual situation? If "Let the most noble one be the one to sacrifice" were an option, any of these guys on the Illuminati would be taking that option. You're acting like it's a plain-as-day choice they've refused to even consider when the situation as it has been defined allows for nothing of the sort.

    The only "noble sacrifice" any of them are aware they can make at this point is to sacrifice their ideals, their self-respect and maybe even their own souls to save others. What they're doing is the oppsosite of arrogance and selfishness.

    I feel like I'm reading posts from someone who is reading these issue through a "Doctor Who" perception filter and can't see what's actually happening on the pages.

    Is it possible that for some longtime readers the reality of the current situation is just so at odds with how superhero comics have always been written that the possibility of there genuinely not being a third option is impossible to accept? The reactions from a few folks strike of classic cognitive dissonance.

    If the situation settles distastefully in our mouths, that's because it's supposed to. "This isn't supposed to happen" should be your reaction because the story being told is one that we haven't seen with these superheroes before. We're witnessing the day they had to betray themselves to do something for other people. Whether to do good or evil is no longer the dilemma -- it has been replaced by the question of how to do the least evil.
    Speaking only for myself here, it's not 'cognitive dissonance' I'm feeling about this storyline, it's simple disgust and disappointment at this point. Putting characters into a situation where they have no alternative but to become mass murderers - simply because the writer has not yet revealed the alternative - is quite off-putting to me as a reader. In terms of overall pacing of this story, this moment feels like we've reached the 3rd act-it's always darkest before the dawn-sort of moment, but this is when your protagonists should get their sh*t together and find the right solution to the problem, not go for the seemingly obvious (but also incorrect) choice - which in this case is to become mass murderers. I've stuck with this story this long because I expected this group to be smart enough to figure out how not to do what we see them doing here. I don't mind seeing heroes make mistakes and do really stupid things that they will later regret. That's makes for interesting character development. But I personally do mind when this is pushed to the point of characters becoming murderers. Murder crosses a line for me. It's too extreme and too bleak for my personal tolerance in what I will read. I have other things that I can spend my money on.
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  3. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammergiant View Post
    Why I said "the only power we've seen". Anyone can come up with examples of heroic feats which may work. I am less concerned with continuity than I am the parameters of this story we have been given.

    Tony has admitted his Dyson sphere is not what it appears to be, although to be fair, I think it was in an issue of Avengers. But, for the sake of argument, would such a place be a home for humanity to thrive? I think people underestimate the psychological importance humans have with Earth. Transporting them all to a Dyson sphere would cripple untold people, even if their survival was assured.
    The Dyson Sphere is only a weapon. It's clearly stated at least two times in the books, the first time Tony shows it to Reed and when he talks with Bruce Banner in a recent Avengers issue. It's also implied when Tony brings Banner on the Sphere in an old issue. It's not 8% complete but 0.008% and has only enough energy to power a Moon not to host/sustain human population.

    When Tony shows it to Reed (and maybe Tchalla) he says "I tought if I've had to go back to the weapon business I could very well go exotic". When Banner discovers the Incursions and talk to Tony he says "it was clear by the design you don't intended to finish it, you are back to the weapon business, aren't you?".

    Quote Originally Posted by vitruvian View Post
    They had most of the eight hour Incursion timeline to effect a solution, and given that the GS had been successful several times before, the Illuminati at least once (albeit with a one-use item that time) and that they've clearly been working on projects related to this problem (the Dyson sphere, the rogue planet just out of phase with Earth, etc.), there was no reason not to use that time working together rather than fighting. As you said, they still had the bomb if that didn't work out.
    Well both the Dyson Sphere and the Rogue Planet are weapons so it wouldn't be a different solution than use the antimatter bomb.

    Quote Originally Posted by stingnewell View Post
    Perhaps Hickman is being to lazy to give these characters a second thought in creating a third option given how most of these have shown the capacity to to fight against the alternative to make a third option. Really this is just Marvel thinking being written purely vile and wrecked is the way to go. It takes away any enjoyment readers once had for these characters and replaces it with resentment shame. But than again Marvel is written by indie writers so they have no understanding of heroism or self sacrifice. Sure they acted like jerks but not to the point where they were willing to sacrifice another planet or lives to make it easier for themselves thats why they were heroes they choose the harder path. If this is your belief than agree to disagree than.
    You shouldn't read this serie in isolation. In the context of Hickman's story Avengers is the heroic book and NA the anti heroic one.

    While indie writers should have no understading of heroism it's something so senseless I don't even want to discuss.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strangefan View Post
    If I.were faced with the option of killing another world to save my own, I would take it. There is nothing right or wrong about the decision, it is totally about survival. It's why people can cut off an arm stuck under a boulder. Instinct.
    You should work on your metaphors Cutting of your own arms by istinct while stuck under a boulder has nothing in common with triggering the pull of a bomb that will kill billions of lives in cold blood due to a phenomen you discovered and studied for weeks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clea View Post
    Speaking only for myself here, it's not 'cognitive dissonance' I'm feeling about this storyline, it's simple disgust and disappointment at this point. Putting characters into a situation where they have no alternative but to become mass murderers - simply because the writer has not yet revealed the alternative - is quite off-putting to me as a reader. In terms of overall pacing of this story, this moment feels like we've reached the 3rd act-it's always darkest before the dawn-sort of moment, but this is when your protagonists should get their sh*t together and find the right solution to the problem, not go for the seemingly obvious (but also incorrect) choice - which in this case is to become mass murderers. I've stuck with this story this long because I expected this group to be smart enough to figure out how not to do what we see them doing here. I don't mind seeing heroes make mistakes and do really stupid things that they will later regret. That's makes for interesting character development. But I personally do mind when this is pushed to the point of characters becoming murderers. Murder crosses a line for me. It's too extreme and too bleak for my personal tolerance in what I will read. I have other things that I can spend my money on.
    As I said to another poster, this story is actually shared between two books, Avengers (the heroic one, with Cap representing life and so on) and New Avengers, the anti heroic one with Stark representing Death, with the heroes caught in an unsolvable situation making the anti heroic choices.
    Last edited by Joe Acro; 07-25-2014 at 02:53 PM. Reason: Merged

  4. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by hammergiant View Post
    I don't know that evacuating the planet would be "simple". It would be a rather arduous and exacting task. Besides the how, where do you send seven billion people, along with the resources to allow them to thrive? Swan has floated this as an option, but it's not a good one. Casting humanity to the stars has it's own set of ramifications. At some point Hickman is going to have to address the evacuation issue, although I have doubts either Black Panther or Namor would be in favor of it in any case.
    Actually it would not be so difficult. Ex Nihilo not only terraformed Mars where he currently lives but, in Infinity, provided the means for sustaining billions and billions of survivors. He and the others Ex Nihili were also shown able to rejuvenate whole planets.

    The sociological issues of how humans would adapt to another planet I think is meaningless when the choice is between killing 8 billions people of an alternative Earth or have 8 billions people of Earth 616 have to adapt to life on a new planet. At that point you find yoursel routinely killing billions of people not to save universes or lifes but just to keep your planet from being destroyed.

    I also think this plan is already in place. In an old issue Reed meet Tony that says him they are not being proactive enough and need other solutions. They go visit someone (it's not said who is supposed to be) to give him a task. When they come back they estimate this someone has around three months to complete his task before an Incursion they won't be able to stop will occur (statistically speaking). Tony calls that solution their "worst case scenario" and I think we can imply the worst case scenario is Earth destruction and that someone probably Ex Nihilo that was given the task to create a place where humans could live.

    Quote Originally Posted by hammergiant View Post
    Strange has explored other options. He didn't leap straight to the Blood Bible. He couldn't find the power he needed anywhere else. The only power we've seen that could move a planet "out of phase" and avoid an incursion is the Infinity gems, and they only worked once.
    Actually Strange was ready and was going to use the Blood Bible in the issue where they find Galactus already destroyng the alternative Earth and they don't need to do nothing (except capturing Terrax).

  5. #110
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    A little perspective people, we speak of a group of established Earthers finding a 3rd option in solving a multiversal problem..

    I know those men are as close to what are the smartest and most resourceful men of Earth as it can gets, but :
    1. They aren't the top dogs in their own galaxy.
    2. Let alone their own universe.
    3. Let alone an infinity number or universes.
    If they seemingly find themselves in an impossible position with only bad choices left at their disposal, then good.
    They SHOULD be.
    They SHOULD feel completely out of their depth here.
    They SHOULD feel desperate and DO desperate things.
    They SHOULD be unable to cope with the scale of the task.

    Some of you guys acting like the Illuminati are so strong, and smart and heroic that they SHOULD be coming on top of what is nothing short but a *godlike* crisis like this one is a tad bit immature and childish.
    Truth is, they shouldn't.
    The likes of Celestials, Captain Universe and over cosmic being such as these SHOULD be the one trying to handle this crisis, because this is the level they are casually operating: universal level.
    The Illuminati struggling here IS both normal and expected.

    Again, I feel likes there's this common belief that the Illuminati are the smartest being out there, in a galaxy filled of star-spanning civilizations, cosmical beings and extra-dimensional visitors smh...
    They are not. They are out of their depth. They are struggling. They make bad choices as a result.
    That makes them human, relatable.
    That makes this story really interesting.
    Exciting even: how will they come back from this ?
    How will they overcome this impossible equation ?
    "The means are as important as the end - we have to do this right or not at all.
    Anything less negates every belief we've ever had, every sacrifice we've ever made."


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  6. #111
    Fantastic Member hammergiant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainwasher View Post
    Actually it would not be so difficult. Ex Nihilo not only terraformed Mars where he currently lives but, in Infinity, provided the means for sustaining billions and billions of survivors. He and the others Ex Nihili were also shown able to rejuvenate whole planets.

    The sociological issues of how humans would adapt to another planet I think is meaningless when the choice is between killing 8 billions people of an alternative Earth or have 8 billions people of Earth 616 have to adapt to life on a new planet. At that point you find yoursel routinely killing billions of people not to save universes or lifes but just to keep your planet from being destroyed.

    I also think this plan is already in place. In an old issue Reed meet Tony that says him they are not being proactive enough and need other solutions. They go visit someone (it's not said who is supposed to be) to give him a task. When they come back they estimate this someone has around three months to complete his task before an Incursion they won't be able to stop will occur (statistically speaking). Tony calls that solution their "worst case scenario" and I think we can imply the worst case scenario is Earth destruction and that someone probably Ex Nihilo that was given the task to create a place where humans could live.
    The psychological and sociological issues were about transporting the population of Earth to the Dyson sphere. If you take, for instance, a Spanish sheep herder, and place him on a Dyson sphere, he's going to suffer a great deal of cognitive dissonance. Multiply that by 7 billion. How many won't be able to adapt? The history of humanity would not lead anyone to think this would be a viable solution.

    A new planet, one which was Earth-like and suited for humanity, would be a better choice. It's something Hickman should address at some point as to why the Illuminati have not, that we know, considered this. Although I still say, neither BP or Namor would go for that option. Rounding up and transporting those 7 billion would still seem to be a monumental task, not to mention you couldn't just plunk them down in an alien wilderness and expect them to survive.

    The Ex Nihilo theory is interesting. Your theory offers a partial solution from a character we have seen in-story. My only problem, I suppose, is that we haven't seen Ex Nihilo since Infinity. Last we saw he and the others, they were fixing worlds which were laid waste during the Builder War. I dunno that the Illuminati know how to contact him. Did any of them actually go into deep space during the conflict?
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  7. #112
    Astonishing Member Ekie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    A little perspective people, we speak of a group of established Earthers finding a 3rd option in solving a multiversal problem..

    I know those men are as close to what are the smartest and most resourceful men of Earth as it can gets, but :
    1. They aren't the top dogs in their own galaxy.
    2. Let alone their own universe.
    3. Let alone an infinity number or universes.
    If they seemingly find themselves in an impossible position with only bad choices left at their disposal, then good.
    They SHOULD be.
    They SHOULD feel completely out of their depth here.
    They SHOULD feel desperate and DO desperate things.
    They SHOULD be unable to cope with the scale of the task.

    Some of you guys acting like the Illuminati are so strong, and smart and heroic that they SHOULD be coming on top of what is nothing short but a *godlike* crisis like this one is a tad bit immature and childish.
    Truth is, they shouldn't.
    The likes of Celestials, Captain Universe and over cosmic being such as these SHOULD be the one trying to handle this crisis, because this is the level they are casually operating: universal level.
    The Illuminati struggling here IS both normal and expected.

    Again, I feel likes there's this common belief that the Illuminati are the smartest being out there, in a galaxy filled of star-spanning civilizations, cosmical beings and extra-dimensional visitors smh...
    They are not. They are out of their depth. They are struggling. They make bad choices as a result.
    That makes them human, relatable.
    That makes this story really interesting.
    Exciting even: how will they come back from this ?
    How will they overcome this impossible equation ?
    Great post

  8. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    A little perspective people, we speak of a group of established Earthers finding a 3rd option in solving a multiversal problem..

    I know those men are as close to what are the smartest and most resourceful men of Earth as it can gets, but :
    1. They aren't the top dogs in their own galaxy.
    2. Let alone their own universe.
    3. Let alone an infinity number or universes.
    If they seemingly find themselves in an impossible position with only bad choices left at their disposal, then good.
    They SHOULD be.
    They SHOULD feel completely out of their depth here.
    They SHOULD feel desperate and DO desperate things.
    They SHOULD be unable to cope with the scale of the task.

    Some of you guys acting like the Illuminati are so strong, and smart and heroic that they SHOULD be coming on top of what is nothing short but a *godlike* crisis like this one is a tad bit immature and childish.
    Truth is, they shouldn't.
    The likes of Celestials, Captain Universe and over cosmic being such as these SHOULD be the one trying to handle this crisis, because this is the level they are casually operating: universal level.
    The Illuminati struggling here IS both normal and expected.

    Again, I feel likes there's this common belief that the Illuminati are the smartest being out there, in a galaxy filled of star-spanning civilizations, cosmical beings and extra-dimensional visitors smh...
    They are not. They are out of their depth. They are struggling. They make bad choices as a result.
    That makes them human, relatable.
    That makes this story really interesting.
    Exciting even: how will they come back from this ?
    How will they overcome this impossible equation ?
    Couldn't have said it better myself.

    Great post.

  9. #114
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    So I guess its settled than new readers prefer Illuminati being as anti heroic as humanly possible and taking the easy way out without even TRYING to create a third option while the older readers prefer them to at least "TRY" to create a third option.

    You'll notice I empathized Try. I'm not asking for them to succeed or to fail but to at least have a 50-50 chance of a third option. At least if they failed I would be content knowing they tried a third option.

  10. #115
    MXAAGVNIEETRO IS RIGHT MyriVerse's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mahes View Post
    If that happens...that would cause some outrage. I don't think Hickman would do that though. We've been getting teased with them crossing the line and now it's finally going to happen.
    What's sickening is that the scene being real doesn't cause more outrage.

    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    A little perspective people, we speak of a group of established Earthers finding a 3rd option in solving a multiversal problem..

    I know those men are as close to what are the smartest and most resourceful men of Earth as it can gets, but :
    1. They aren't the top dogs in their own galaxy.
    2. Let alone their own universe.
    3. Let alone an infinity number or universes.
    If they seemingly find themselves in an impossible position with only bad choices left at their disposal, then good.
    They SHOULD be.
    They SHOULD feel completely out of their depth here.
    They SHOULD feel desperate and DO desperate things.
    They SHOULD be unable to cope with the scale of the task.

    Some of you guys acting like the Illuminati are so strong, and smart and heroic that they SHOULD be coming on top of what is nothing short but a *godlike* crisis like this one is a tad bit immature and childish.
    Truth is, they shouldn't.
    The likes of Celestials, Captain Universe and over cosmic being such as these SHOULD be the one trying to handle this crisis, because this is the level they are casually operating: universal level.
    The Illuminati struggling here IS both normal and expected.

    Again, I feel likes there's this common belief that the Illuminati are the smartest being out there, in a galaxy filled of star-spanning civilizations, cosmical beings and extra-dimensional visitors smh...
    They are not. They are out of their depth. They are struggling. They make bad choices as a result.
    That makes them human, relatable.
    That makes this story really interesting.
    Exciting even: how will they come back from this ?
    How will they overcome this impossible equation ?
    No, they pretty much are the top dogs in their galaxy. Reed's moved entire planets into various dimensions and universes before. Pushing Earths (his or others) somewhere should be child's play for him. Galactic empires fall when trying to invade Earth because of them. Strange fought a bloody 1000-year war when drafted by beings that are gods to him and won. Hickman's really just treating them like newbies.
    Last edited by MyriVerse; 07-25-2014 at 11:57 AM.
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  11. #116
    Astonishing Member Double 0's Avatar
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    I do agree that Hickman should have given a bit more time showing the Illuminati talking shop, trying to figure out solutions, and failing. That would even things out a bit. Without it, it looks like people are making assumptions that they haven't even thought about another option.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Double 0 View Post
    I do agree that Hickman should have given a bit more time showing the Illuminati talking shop, trying to figure out solutions, and failing. That would even things out a bit. Without it, it looks like people are making assumptions that they haven't even thought about another option.
    They could easily team up with the Great Society their efforts to think of a a third solution would go from 50% to a good 80%. The Society would provide the speed to find resources for the Illuminati and make great time creating whatever device while the Illuminati keep certain members like Namor on guard duty with Thanos and Swan.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by UltimateTy View Post
    Doing nothing when they know how to protect their world would make them much worse in my eyes
    Murdering another world to save ours? That's worse.

  14. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by People Of The Earth View Post
    Yykes Mark ! You really would have let your planet die out of nobility ?
    In-universe, they are at the very end of their rope right now, there's no known alternative at their disposal.
    If they thought for one second the likes of Franklin Richards or Legion could magically solve the issue for them, they'd have involved them a long time ago...
    What is this thing called life that you would hold onto it so dearly? There has been proven time and again to be an afterlife in the mu. Living selfishly is no real life. If the Illuminati are out of their depth why not call for help? It's not like there aren't other beings in the universe that they can call up.

  15. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeitgeist View Post
    If you thought New Avengers was going to be about black and white heroism, you've been reading the wrong book.
    Black and white heroism? No. Heroism yes. Dr. Strange just murdered a group of noble beings who trying to save their world. The Illuminati as a group might blow up a world full of people who have never done them any harm. Murder on that scale is not heroism, no matter what rationalization justification you try to cloak it in. It is murder.

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