Mary Sues and Gary Stus-Legit complaints or misplaced insults?

[Powerboy]

The Mary Sue label came about as a reaction to fan fiction where some random character would one-up Kirk. So I see Kirk as the absolute NOT Mary Sue. Or Picard v Wesley Crusher. Or any of the Doctors v their Companions.

It’s fustrating with Doctor Who, because the Companion is open to the criticism by virtue of not being the Doctor. It’s too easy for fans to call out all the Companions for being Mary Sues, as if that wins the argument and there’s nothing more to say. Whereas it’s the purpose of the Companion to be someone who represents everyone else—that’s why the Companions are more representatve than the Doctor. Yes they punch above their weight, but that’s what they’re supposed to do.

The companions were saving the Doctor's hash from 1963 at the very beginning and onward so the irony of the companions being capable in their own right would almost sound like people getting mad because the Doctor isn't always a Mary Sue.

[Panic]

The Arthurian Mythos is a series of many stories, not just one. Lancelot was the protagonist of his own story. Yes, he threw a monkey wrench into Arthur's story as well, but all stories have characters who do that. If Lancelot was a Mary Sue (and it's not even clear he was created by any one person), he would have come to a far happier ending than he did.

It goes much further than that. Lancelot used existing characters in his story, changing them to make them less appealing and less of a threat to his status as greatest knight in the world. Arthur, Gawain, and Perceval all had their stories and characters changed so Lancelot could shine.

[Indian Ink]

Galahad takes Lancelot's Mary Suedom and turns it up to violet unicorn level. A late insert into the mythos, he is son of Lancelot himself and the princess Elaine. Galahad is born with the promise that he will be the Bestest Knight Eva!
Upon coming to Camelot he sits down at an empty chair at the Round table. The chair is called the siege perilous and has instantly killed every previous knight that has sat in it. To the amazement of all, Galahad is unharmed. He thus becomes the Round tables greatest knight.
Later he's always rescuing other knights of the Round table. He alone can defeat twenty other knights unaided by himself. Galahad is so beautiful that by viewing only his face one can't be sure if he's man or woman. All love him, including some of King Arthur's enemies.
Only Galahad can succeed at finding the holy grail; his father, Lancelot being knocked out at the sight of it. Shortly after completing the Grail quest, and too pure for this world and undefeated by any foe, Galahad ascends to heaven in a glorious rapture of light and angels.

[Star_Jammer]

Bella Swan, anyone?

[AndrewCrossett]

It goes much further than that. Lancelot used existing characters in his story, changing them to make them less appealing and less of a threat to his status as greatest knight in the world. Arthur, Gawain, and Perceval all had their stories and characters changed so Lancelot could shine.

But this didn't happen immediately as the result of a single writer, as with modern stories. The Arthurian legend grew and changed and evolved organically over centuries. Chrétien de Troyes is most responsible for Lancelot as a major hero of the stories, but I think he was trying to portray him as a "perfect knight" so he could then subject him to a tragic downfall. Lancelot ends up grieving in a monastery, having lost his friends, his lover, his worldly position, his son completed the Grail Quest instead of him, and the Round Table fell as a result of his actions. This is not the usual fate of a Mary Sue.

The tropes and mechanics of 21st century pop culture don't really fit well with medieval mythology.

[Comic-Reader Lad]

It seems like no one has mentioned RiRi Williams, Amadeus Cho, Squirrel Girl, or Moon Girl.

I don't read their comics, but from what I know about them, they are all considered to be perfect and smarter than everyone. RiRi and Amadeus specifically replaced original characters and the subtext was that they were better than Tony or Bruce.

Squirrel Girl basically seems like a squirrel-ex-machina as she can defeat anyone off-panel including Galactus from what I understand.

Does anyone think these 4 qualify as Mary Sues?

[AJBopp]

It seems like no one has mentioned RiRi Williams, Amadeus Cho, Squirrel Girl, or Moon Girl.

I don't read their comics, but from what I know about them, they are all considered to be perfect and smarter than everyone.

I don't think these are qualifications for the label

[80sbaby]

Bella Swan, anyone?

THIS! Textbook "Mary Stu" for sure.

[AJBopp]

THIS! Textbook "Mary Stu" for sure.

I don't read those books, but....isn't she the main protagonist?

[sunofdarkchild]

Applying terms meant for fanfics to official works is iffy. The closest thing to a real 'Mary Sue' not from a fanfic that comes to my mind is Wesley from season 1 of Star Trek TNG. He's not the main protagonist, but he;s shoved in the audience's face and often solves the crisis of the week by being so gosh darn brilliant.

Rey from TFA is problematic in that she can just do all that out of nowhere, so she walks the line, but I don't think she crosses over it largely because she;s handled better in TLJ.

[AJBopp]

Applying terms meant for fanfics to official works is iffy. The closest thing to a real 'Mary Sue' not from a fanfic that comes to my mind is Wesley from season 1 of Star Trek TNG. He's not the main protagonist, but he;s shoved in the audience's face and often solves the crisis of the week by being so gosh darn brilliant.

Rey from TFA is problematic in that she can just do all that out of nowhere, so she walks the line, but I don't think she crosses over it largely because she;s handled better in TLJ.

I believe the official count on Wesley is that he saves the day 7 times. I have the impression, though, that he causes a problem he had to be rescued from by others far more often than that, so I don't think he qualifies, much as many people seem to want him to.

[Kusanagi]

Layla Miller when she first appeared in House of M, though she got better development later on (still gets to hook up with a fan favorite character though)

[master of read]

i 100% agree that alice from the RE movies is a self-insert mary sue but mainly due to the director wanting to show off his hot wife.

she was ok in RE 1 but the moment they started introducing other characters from the games, that's when **** went down hill. badass characters like jill, barry, claire, leon and ada are made secondary characters at best and non-characters at worse.

[Gray Lensman]

Layla Miller when she first appeared in House of M, though she got better development later on (still gets to hook up with a fan favorite character though)

I always considered Layla in House of M to be more of a MacGuffin than a Mary Sue. She was a walking plot device used to start breaking apart the fantasy world everyone was living in. She got better and became a pretty engaging character, but I think in her initial appearance she could have been replaced by a magical/celestial/ect artifact and it would have been the same.

[Jackalope89]

I don't read those books, but....isn't she the main protagonist?

Yep. Sure is.

https://dazzlemethis.wordpress.com/2...garding-bella/