Superman#4 Discussion and Spoilers

[Rakzo]

And I've counted with the fact that "he already grew beyond killing 17 to 19 issues before issue 21 but then because of the people egging him on and the situation being on a bigger scale he gets very, very close to breaking his vow, AND he later questions his dad's whole stance on the subject."

He is literally documented being thrown of by the change in scale throwing off a lesson he's learned. A change in scale is clearly indicated here, and thus Jon is susceptible to being thrown off by it. Like, I'm not getting how it's a stretch.

Based on previous experience of Bendis writing Jon, which again, was pretty bad, is not really a stretch, especially considering Jon's current attitude in other books.

[Sacred Knight]

Not even MOS supports any out-of-character claims. This was thoroughly debunked at the time of publication with multiple examples from Tomasi's run that fully supports a defiant streak. To fully support that he very much can and has before challenged his parents when determined. Bendis has no history of writing Jon any differently to any significant, jarring degree than Tomasi did. Be it in MOS or now.

And the "he grew beyond it" retort is weak. His buttons which are a key part of his personality is just gone? After one year and an adolescent? No way. That he and Damian eventually became close friends doesn't mean that you can hand wave away him physically starting a fight with him when verbally provoked as comparison to this very instance. Its very much in-character. There's nothing in that initial run to ever suggest that well, he did it once, learned his lesson, and now he'll never again get mad when someone badmouths him or people he cares about.

[Rakzo]

I would love to hear a reason why Jon would think "there's something wrong with me!" after he was rejected by the frikking Teen Titans (something that he took fairly well, accepted and later teamed-up with them with no problem during a crossover), especially after all the things that happened during Tomasi's run where he gained even more confidence.

[Vordan]

I would love to hear a reason why Jon would think "there's something wrong with me!" after he was rejected by the frikking Teen Titans (something that he took fairly well, accepted and later teamed-up with them with no problem during a crossover), especially after all the things that happened during Tomasi's run where he gained even more confidence.

Because he heard about a future version of himself that got a bunch of people killed and he’s terrified? This idea that Jon is a flat character that decides he’s going to be a good, confident person and then never wavers from that characterization doesn’t really make much sense to me. He’s a kid. He’s going to have good days where he lives up to his parents and his own expectations, and bad days where he doesn’t. If he never struggled with, faltered, or failed in his goal of being a hero he’d be a Mary Sue.

[Sacred Knight]

Because he's ten. Because a person, especially a child, doesn't just magically lose all sense of self-doubt that may exist after one positive experience. He's still a very different child. And because its incredibly easy to imagine that he could have been affected more by stories of his evil future counterpart than he'd initially let on and keep it inside. That it didn't come up until then is hardly a reach of any kind. Its perfectly reasonable that these things still would have an affect on him and wouldn't just be cured completely after one adventure, or after one lesson. Hey in real life that'd be really cool if things worked out like that, but its not. And beyond being unrealistic doesn't make for an interesting fictional character anyway.

[Rakzo]

Because he heard about a future version of himself that got a bunch of people killed and he’s terrified? This idea that Jon is a flat character that decides he’s going to be a good, confident person and then never wavers from that characterization doesn’t really make much sense to me. He’s a kid. He’s going to have good days where he lives up to his parents and his own expectations, and bad days where he doesn’t. If he never struggled with, faltered, or failed in his goal of being a hero he’d be a Mary Sue.

Because he's ten. Because a person, especially a child, doesn't just magically lose all sense of self-doubt that may exist after one positive experience. He's still a very different child. And because its incredibly easy to imagine that he could have been affected more by stories of his evil future counterpart than he'd initially let on and keep it inside. Its perfectly reasonable that these things still would have an effect on him and wouldn't just be cured completely after one adventure, or after one lesson. Hey in real life that'd be really cool if things worked out like that, but its not. And beyond being unrealistic doesn't make for an interesting fictional character anyway.

Sorry, no. "He's a kid" as a justification for poor portrayals doesn't fly unless is properly explained.

Otherwise, Damian's growth wouldn't have been as consistent.

[Sacred Knight]

That people, when it comes to issues of emotion, don't just have one lesson and then bam, they never have the issue again, is not something that needs to be explained. Its compounded when its a child but its true for any character. Its complete common sense. Emotions just don't change at the drop of a hat. Someone can steal something, learn their lesson, and never do it again. This is not at all the same thing. Someone just never getting mad again because he did it once and learned a lesson? Doesn't happen.

Damian also still has a temper. A huge one. He controls it better. Its not gone. Emotions are not easy. Furthermore in actual practice Damian is a lot older than Jon Kent with a lot more stories and growth under his belt. Jon has existed for two years. Take off the handcuffs just a little bit. Its unfair to the writers and it can only serve to make for a more bland character to boot.

[Vordan]

Poor portrayal is subjective. Seeing Jon struggle and grow with being a hero is far more interesting to me than “And then Jon decided to be a good person and he always was. The end”. That doesn’t line up at all with any kid I know. If you don’t like it so be it.

[Rakzo]

Still not seeing a justification for "Something must be wrong with meeeee!" coming out of nowhere.

[Sacred Knight]

Because there needs to be no justification. A writer taking a past event and expanding upon it is and always has been well within bounds. He took the situation with the evil alternate Jon Kent, and revealed it had an affect on him that he just didn't talk about at the time. I'm at a complete loss as to how that does not work, how that was not a perfectly organic door to walk through if a writer chose. And Bendis chose to.

[Rakzo]

Because that's not how it happened. Jon accepted what happened with the Teen Titans and even teamed-up with them.

"Something is wrong with meeeee!" is simply bad characterization.

[Superlad93]

After Sons of Tomorrow (the story he got rejected) when did Jon team up with the Teen Titans?

[Sacred Knight]

Because that's not how it happened. Jon accepted what happened with the Teen Titans and even teamed-up with them.

"Something is wrong with meeeee!" is simply bad characterization.

It IS what happened now. Bendis took that moment, and made it as something that affected him deeper than he initially let on. A completely valid choice. It contradicts nothing about the previous story told, because the way its crafted it still bothered him internally for another reason (the alternate version of himself), and it comes out here in MOS. It works perfectly fine. Its nothing forced, its completely organic, and thus the characterization is fine.

[Rakzo]

It IS what happened, now. Bendis took that moment, and made it as something that affected him deeper than he initially let on. A completely in-bounds choice. It contradicts nothing because it bothered him internally, he held it in, and it comes out here in MOS. It works perfectly fine.

Well, considering that Jon expresses every feeling he has in most of his scenes, I highly doubt this.

[Sacred Knight]

So now the argument is that writers cannot portray Jon as having internal feelings he does not speak on immediately? If it wasn't in a Tomasi thought-bubble at some point during his time with the character, then that's it for the creative process.

I don't get the hoops you're jumping through to hamstring how the character can be written.