Barbara Gordon: Batgirl, Oracle Appreciation 2020

[godisawesome]

I think there may be some mix of greater quality (or at least some context to help explain why that’s percieved to be the case) in the Steph and Cass stories with some element of originality and “osmosis” of quality from the time period they were being written in.

Cass’s story launched when the Batbooks were still on the upswing from NML, and when a guy like Chuck Dixon was still the workhorse for the “B-books” in the franchise... but doing a stellar job at it. And it also lasted through three years of Gail Simone’s first real run on Birds of Prey. The perception of quality in those books, peers to Cass’s Batgirl series, is going to reflect positively on her series when she stands alongside them. Plus, let’s face it, if you’re a fan of Cassandra Cain from back then, it’s 99% Puckett’s work that made that happen - her fanbase is going to be happily tied to that run by its very nature, much like how Tim Drake fans are tied to Dixon’s work on Robin, or how BoP fans are tied to Simone.

Similarly, Steph’s book launched during the late Batman renaissance of RIP-Inc, where Morrison and Snyder were juggling the big books people were reading... and where names like Paul Dini, Simone again, and Fabian Nicieza were running B-team books. So Steph’s book received a similar rub to Cass’s. Bryan Q. Miller also got to make the most of her run, managing to win over fans and make the book a true cult classic at minimum. He also was writing Steph in the ID for the first time, so again, BatSteph fans are always going to have a high opinion of him.

Babs has a different set-up for the modern era.

Her run launched in the shadow of Oracle having been defined by Jon Ostrander salvaging a diamond from the sludge of TKJ, with people like Dixon and Simone polishing and honing the diamond for decades, and with multiple earlier Batgirl stories published by different people. The fact that the New 52’s B-team Batbooks had a more rocky reputation doesn’t help, and neither does the fact that Simone’s run on a Babs in the Batsuit didn’t take off as expected.

I think there might be some quality arguments to make... but I’ll also confess that I’m a bad source for it, since I just tend to shrug about Babs as Batgirl now. The fact that she feels “lesser” to me in the suit and not as Oracle, and that her book had a bit of chaos early on means that I just don’t care about her current run that much.

And I think that perception is a problem she’s going to have until she has a sustained long term run for a while.

[Godlike13]

Babs has sustained about as long as Steph and Cass combine at this point. With more variety and versatility. Cass and Steph fans just tend to look at the only runs really done with them through Rose colored glasses. Which is fine, I do that with Dixon’s Nightwing.
But lets not pretend the a lot of the perception problems doesn’t come down to not my Batgirl. How many criticisms aren’t prefixed with Cass or Steph somewhere. Even now its hard to tell if anyone genuinely cares about Oracle or if they are just taking up that banner cause really they want her out of the way for their preferred Batgirl. Steph had to deal with the same **** till they took her out of the role, and then Babs became the focal point for 2 upset fan bases.

[Flash Gordon]

If anything should be the basis of a Batgirl film, it's Year One.

The Burnside look can be a prototype costume but it shouldn't stick for the final look.

I think it should be the look all throughout, for the entrie duration. It's such an aesthetically pleasing design. Maybe just inject a little of Batgirl '66 into it.

[Badou]

Purple costume was from the '60's show, she's never worn it in the comics.

She also wore a purple costume on The Batman cartoon. So it isn't like Steph started the purple Batgirl costume thing.

I don't think either Simone's work or Burnside hold up as well as Puckett's work on Cass or Miller's on Steph's run. We can agree to disagree on that, but I still maintain Burnside gave us a more shallow Batgirl then we deserve.

She was 21 years old in the Burnside run. She was written like a young adult college student and that is what she was. So I never really understood the criticism. She wasn't the 30+ year old Oracle at that point anymore and they wanted the book to appeal to young readers more. I mean it is pretty common for writers to write a character to fit the kind of run they want to do, but with Babs it feels like some readers hold her to a different standard in order to knock her character.

[Digifiend]

Yeah, Babs was 21 from New 52 through to just before she switched to her current costume. Both she and Dick were aged up at that point (which is also roughly the time he got shot). Since Barbara was aged down to match Dick though, even now his age is restored to pre-Flashpoint, hers is late twenties as well, she's not as old as she used to be in the 90s and 2000s. The Burnside era will need to be retconned in 5G as she'll now have been older then.

[Frontier]

Babs has sustained about as long as Steph and Cass combine at this point. With more variety and versatility. Cass and Steph fans just tend to look at the only runs really done with them through Rose colored glasses. Which is fine, I do that with Dixon’s Nightwing.
But lets not pretend the a lot of the perception problems doesn’t come down to not my Batgirl. How many criticisms aren’t prefixed with Cass or Steph somewhere. Even now its hard to tell if anyone genuinely cares about Oracle or if they are just taking up that banner cause really they want her out of the way for their preferred Batgirl. Steph had to deal with the same **** till they took her out of the role, and then Babs became the focal point for 2 upset fan bases.

I guess if we mean "variety and versatility" in that she's had two very, very different runs and takes, then yeah. But it still feels like DC is trying to find a way to reconcile the two very different takes on Barbara Gordon as Batgirl now.

I mean, I care about Barbara Gordon no matter what identity she's using. Even if she were Oracle I'd still want to read about her as a major character and player in the DCU.

She also wore a purple costume on The Batman cartoon. So it isn't like Steph started the purple Batgirl costume thing.

I never said she did, although she was the first to wear it as part of her main costume in the comics.

She was 21 years old in the Burnside run. She was written like a young adult college student and that is what she was. So I never really understood the criticism. She wasn't the 30+ year old Oracle at that point anymore and they wanted the book to appeal to young readers more. I mean it is pretty common for writers to write a character to fit the kind of run they want to do, but with Babs it feels like some readers hold her to a different standard in order to knock her character.

Yeah, but it felt completely divorced from how Simone depicted her and the actual level of age and experience she should be at this point. I'm not sure if someone who went through being Batman's second protege after Dick, The Killing Joke, maybe being Oracle at some point, and becoming Batgirl again should be wearing a homemade costume and coming off younger then she actually is.

Which where all the complaints about her feeling like she's de-aged come from even if the New 52 de-aged everyone and she's still the same age she was when Simone wrote her as Batgirl. I get trying to appeal to younger readers but that kind of revamp felt a bit out-of-place in the main continuity line.

As for me, personally, I hold her up to a high standard because of my experience with the character, not as a means of knocking her down.

[sorboares]

Burnside era to me was extremely disappointing. In my opinion it was too huge a change from Gail Simones New 52 era.
I hated the art, I hated how Barbara was made so immature,I hated how she just wanted to party and take selfies. I could have maybe understood this if it was meant to be like an origin story but not a story that continues from New 52 and The Killing Joke.
The costume was too home made and cosplayer. For someone who just recovered from being paralysed and for someone who was Oracle this costume was just crazy.
They should have kept Gail Simones costume on her, it was covered in armor to protect her and to protect her back. It was such an awesome design which I loved and which made total sense.
The new Batgirl costume she is wearing at the moment I do like but hate she doesnt have a cowl. If only they were to put a cowl on this costume I would be so much happier.
I hope Barbara/Batgirl gets her solo live action movie soon and I hope the costume is similar to the New 52 look.and nothing like Burnside and I pray she has a cowl. I dont want an Alicia Silverstone Batgirl again looking like Robin in a Domino mask.
I do admit when Babs Tarr wasnt drawing Batgirl I didnt mind the Burnside look because other people made the costume look cool and made Barbara look older.
I know many fans diagree with me and that fair enough but I still believe Simones New 52 Batgirl was and is far superior to Burnside.
To me Burnside pushed Batgirl away from the Batfamily, they pushed her away from her history and it was just too much change.

[Flash Gordon]

People claiming Babs was 'immature' when she's supposed to be a 21 year old are being a bit ridiculous, right? She's supposed to be young and act young, she's a child.

The obsession with history is also relative. I feel like most fans just enjoy facts and knowing things from the past, but this Batgirl is supposed to be fresh and new for a new audience. Something that takes the better elements and makes them modern. The Burnside stuff isn't beholden to facts and trivia from the past or from the 'Bat-family' (which is overly bloated anyway) because it is trying to reach a new audience. I mean the important stuff is all there- who she is and what drives her, her relationship to Dick Grayson, her relationship to her father, her importance as a hero.

[Badou]

Yeah, but it felt completely divorced from how Simone depicted her and the actual level of age and experience she should be at this point. I'm not sure if someone who went through being Batman's second protege after Dick, The Killing Joke, maybe being Oracle at some point, and becoming Batgirl again should be wearing a homemade costume and coming off younger then she actually is.

Which where all the complaints about her feeling like she's de-aged come from even if the New 52 de-aged everyone and she's still the same age she was when Simone wrote her as Batgirl. I get trying to appeal to younger readers but that kind of revamp felt a bit out-of-place in the main continuity line.

As for me, personally, I hold her up to a high standard because of my experience with the character, not as a means of knocking her down.

The beginning of the New 52 was a mess though. At first DC didn't even want to call it a reboot but just a relaunch. So Babs character was stuck in this position of being obviously deaged, but nearly all of Batman's history was still there in just 5 years while somehow Babs' history wasn't. We had no idea what was and what wasn't in continuity for Babs anymore other than TKJ. Her BoP history and relationships and the other Batgirls were all unknown. Her time as Oracle was in question too.

So it is difficult to draw on past stories and figure out how to write her when you have no idea what is canon anymore. Dick's character suffered from this too. His history was a mess and all we knew for certain was that his time in the circus was still there. So that is what Higgins built most of the first half of his run around. Dick's Titans history was gone, a most of his time as Batman was gone, his Bludhaven history was unknown, and we didn't even know how he became Nightwing.

Simone was mostly just writing her like she was older because she didn't really know what else to do. There was no reference points to go off of other than TKJ. Then on top of that there was apparently some mandate to tell dark and more serious stories. So it was difficult to tell fun or more lighthearted stories with this new younger Batgirl when you are being told darker is better. Plus the book sold extremely well during this time with the Joker and Gordon Jr, so no need to change what they were doing. It wasn't until Burnside and DC YOU that they started to become more open to different and lighter stories. So they started writing her more age appropriate and probably closer to what she should have been at the start of the New 52, but it was very different in tone from Simone's run. Then again King and Seeley's Grayson run was very different in tone and characterization from Higgins' Nightwing. So it wasn't just unique to Babs.

[Frontier]

The beginning of the New 52 was a mess though. At first DC didn't even want to call it a reboot but just a relaunch. So Babs character was stuck in this position of being obviously deaged, but nearly all of Batman's history was still there in just 5 years while somehow Babs' history wasn't. We had no idea what was and what wasn't in continuity for Babs anymore other than TKJ. Her BoP history and relationships and the other Batgirls were all unknown. Her time as Oracle was in question too.

So it is difficult to draw on past stories and figure out how to write her when you have no idea what is canon anymore. Dick's character suffered from this too. His history was a mess and all we knew for certain was that his time in the circus was still there. So that is what Higgins built most of the first half of his run around. Dick's Titans history was gone, a most of his time as Batman was gone, his Bludhaven history was unknown, and we didn't even know how he became Nightwing.

Simone was mostly just writing her like she was older because she didn't really know what else to do. There was no reference points to go off of other than TKJ. Then on top of that there was apparently some mandate to tell dark and more serious stories. So it was difficult to tell fun or more lighthearted stories with this new younger Batgirl when you are being told darker is better. Plus the book sold extremely well during this time with the Joker and Gordon Jr, so no need to change what they were doing. It wasn't until Burnside and DC YOU that they started to become more open to different and lighter stories. So they started writing her more age appropriate and probably closer to what she should have been at the start of the New 52, but it was very different in tone from Simone's run. Then again King and Seeley's Grayson run was very different in tone and characterization from Higgins' Nightwing. So it wasn't just unique to Babs.

I think Simone was writing her version of Barbara Gordon as Batgirl, even if she couldn't reference the Oracle stuff or BoP because of how messy continuity was at the time. So she was a more active, younger, version of Oracle or the older Barbara Gordon.

Simone wasn't even for putting her back in the suit so I think she did the best she could at the time. Sometimes the darkness and gore seemed like what she was into at the time but DC editorial probably didn't help when you look at how other titles were content-wise at the time, which is probably why she left for a bit during DoTF.

Is Burnside Babs what we should have gotten at the start of the New 52? I wasn't in love with Simone's take all the time but I appreciated an active, independent, Batgirl with strong ties to the Batfamily and who seemed more mature and experienced then what we got with Burnside. But that's just me.

Burnside was tone and content wise the complete opposite of what Simone was doing. King and Seeley were different from Higgins but it felt more like a change in direction then a complete revamp, and Dick's character still felt consistent enough to me.

[Cmbmool]

Burnside Babs felt more like Barbara suffering from a midlife crisis of sorts and trying to be hip with the youth of today.

[voidox]

Burnside Babs felt more like Barbara suffering from a midlife crisis of sorts and trying to be hip with the youth of today.

true, burnside batgirl would have worked really well if it was steph, not babs

[Shamrock Holmes]

true, burnside batgirl would have worked really well if it was steph, not babs

I've always thought that.

I think the stories would've needed to adapted to a degree, but Steph as Burnside Batgirl would've essentially been a progressive development, rather than the regressive back-step that lead to Barbara as Burnside Batgirl.

No-one has been willing to explain why that wouldn't have been an option.

To be fair, Burnside isn't the only New52/Rebirth arc that I feel this way about. I have a similar opinion on the Superman/Wonder Woman plotline, pre-Flashpoint, the 'Superman dates the daughter of Zeus' would've been a development of the existing, canonical Kon-Cassie relationship, so would have been the natural progressive option, likewise Vic as a founder of a new Justice League made up of ex-Titans/Infinitors (Dick, Donna, Wally, Raven, Starfire, Power Girl), and 90s stand-ins (Kyle, Jesse Quick) makes much more organic sense than the set up of the Nu52 League. YMMV.

[gregpersons]

I've always thought that.

I think the stories would've needed to adapted to a degree, but Steph as Burnside Batgirl would've essentially been a progressive development, rather than the regressive back-step that lead to Barbara as Burnside Batgirl.

No-one has been willing to explain why that wouldn't have been an option.

To be fair, Burnside isn't the only New52/Rebirth arc that I feel this way about. I have a similar opinion on the Superman/Wonder Woman plotline, pre-Flashpoint, the 'Superman dates the daughter of Zeus' would've been a development of the existing, canonical Kon-Cassie relationship, so would have been the natural progressive option, likewise Vic as a founder of a new Justice League made up of ex-Titans/Infinitors (Dick, Donna, Wally, Raven, Starfire, Power Girl), and 90s stand-ins (Kyle, Jesse Quick) makes much more organic sense than the set up of the Nu52 League. YMMV.

They just want Barbara as Batgirl for the perceived iconic aspect of the IP.

Even so, it still makes more sense for Steph to be Batgirl, so that she doesn't look identical to Batwoman. It's kind of strange that Batgirl and Batwoman are both redheads? From an IP perspective it just seems weird to me.

[Godlike13]

Most the Batgirls are similar enough that a number of storyline ideas could conceivably be interchanged between one to another. The same is true for the Robins. Burnside was important because it was being done with the iconic Batgirl. It was the same with Grayson at the time.