Who’d win
Gandalf the white vs Dumbledore
If Dumbledore wins then he fights Gandalf in his true form
Who’d win
Gandalf the white vs Dumbledore
If Dumbledore wins then he fights Gandalf in his true form
By ‘true form’ are you referring to Olórin?
Why are we here?
"Superboy Prime (the yelling guy if he needs clarification)..." - Postmania
"...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
"Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate
Well, THAT particular fight is either a stomp or ‘we don’t have feats for Olórin.’ I go with stomp, myself.
Going by comparison with other Maiar and presentation, Olórin crushes Dumbledore. Unless I’m missing some feats that put Dumbledore waaaaaay outside the HP power curve.
Why are we here?
"Superboy Prime (the yelling guy if he needs clarification)..." - Postmania
"...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
"Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate
"Death makes you die, it just makes my brights Brighter".
The MunchKING is Back! And he is AWSOME!
I think Gandalf and the wizards by feats could counter anything Dumbledore can throw, but Dumbledore has an edge on speed and teleportation
Against Istari Gandalf, I'd back Dumbledore. He has too many instant fight-enders and way too many mobility and stealth options. He can go invisible without a cloak (feats and presentation in the first book), he can teleport with a thought, he can mind-whammy, he can transmute into a teacup, he can make float then smash around, and launch into orbit or whatever, he can accio the staff, he can soul rip (no feats, but c'mon, he definitely knows Avada Kedavra.). None of this takes build up, all of it can work at range.
Against Olorin, yeah, an actual Maiar kinda breaks the power curve of HP.
"But... But I want to be a big karate cyborg... ;_;" - Nik Hasta
"Get off my lawn! ...on this forum, that just makes people think of Cyclops." - Sharpandpointies
"...makes me think the Night King just says "Screw the rules, I have magic money" when it comes to physics." -Captain Morgan
I think Gandalf can read minds and thus deduce where Dumbledore is if he was to go invisible.
Mind whammy, both Sauron and Sauruman can mind whammy or rather mind control, in LOTR trilogy they controlled their armies via mind control, All three are of the same race and Gandalf is more powerful then Sauruman by two towers.
In LOTR fellowship it was implied Gandalf can transmute
I doubt he can just take the staff, Sauruman in the hobbit was fighting off the wringwraiths and Gandalf was holding off a balrog and Sauron with his for a time.
Idk what a soul rip is, but I do know Sauruman possessed the king in two towers and Sauron could control spirits and put them into werewolves.
Also Gandalf in his grey form fraught n killed a balrog after fighting for several days, he also drove off the Nazgul as the white with his staff.
Also in LOTR Sauruman was summoning storms and taking out the side of a mountain
Are we using movie canon or book canon for these fights? Because unless specified, it's primary canon, which is books for both.
A few points - Saruman controlling his armies by mind control is a little iffy; it's not shown anywhere in the books. Saruman's big method of control was with his empowered Voice.
Sauron most certainly controlled his armies mentally. However...
Saruman and Gandalf are no longer 'the same race' as Sauron. They are Maiar who have been stuffed into a mortal body and are subject to its limitations - Istari. Their powers are lessened. They can die. They age. They can become tired. They require food and water. Etc.
Also, if Gandalf was going to use a mental attack we'd need to have feats for him doing so. He doesn't have those kinds of feats.
We'd need to see feats for it, and if it works on a living body. When did that happen?In LOTR fellowship it was implied Gandalf can transmute
That's the movie, not books - if we're using movie canon, that changes things (also, I leave the thread, barf ).I doubt he can just take the staff, Sauruman in the hobbit was fighting off the wringwraiths
Book Gandalf certainly fought a balrog. And won. Though he didn't create any magical force field with his staff in the books.and Gandalf was holding off a balrog and Sauron with his for a time.
Book Gandalf (the Grey) versus Sauron in Dol Guldur, we don't have anything more than 'Found out Sauron was the Necromancer and ran for his life.'
Again, movie canon. Nothing of the sort happens in the books.Idk what a soul rip is, but I do know Sauruman possessed the king in two towers
Which is a feat for Sauron, not Gandalf.and Sauron could control spirits and put them into werewolves.
He actually (book Canon) fought the Balrog and killed it after a battle that lasted ten days that wreathed the top of a mountain with a storm of fire and lightning. A battle that also involved running up stairs from the bottom of a mountain to the top after falling a good length of that distance and splatting into water. And after the fall, fighting underwater for a time.Also Gandalf in his grey form fraught n killed a balrog after fighting for several days, he also drove off the Nazgul as the white with his staff.
It's an impressive feat.
Book Canon, it's implied that Saruman might have been summoning storms. Said storms didn't take out the side of a mountain, though.Also in LOTR Sauruman was summoning storms and taking out the side of a mountain
Movie Canon, again something very different.
I don't know who wins these fights - I don't read Harry Potter and don't know enough about Dumbledore (other than that he's not taking Olórin). I'm just here to correct some stuff about LotR.
Last edited by Sharpandpointies; 05-18-2021 at 11:11 AM.
Why are we here?
"Superboy Prime (the yelling guy if he needs clarification)..." - Postmania
"...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
"Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate
I mean, if we're going by book-Gandalf, he should have zero problem either busting Dumbledore's wand or whipping it out of his hand - it's something he does on more than one occasion (Gimli's axe, Saruman's staff) without any build-up or anything, just 'wave staff' or 'point' and boom, done.
One could argue that it's a good starting strategy.
However, I understand Dumbledore has feats for using magic without a wand, so there's that as well. ^_^
Why are we here?
"Superboy Prime (the yelling guy if he needs clarification)..." - Postmania
"...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
"Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate
A composite of both
By same race I mean what you said...they def aren’t just mortals and can’t really die. I believe they are all comparable in power.
It’s implied, idk where you're getting we need to see feats? Not everything is on screen or on the pages for it to have happened
The book doesn’t mention him fighting the wraiths or Sauron in the hobbit just that they beat him but used weapons or stuff Sauruman invented I believe...again both book n movie
Again both books n movies bro...go make your own thread if you wanna nit pick
Again they’re the same race
Yes
It’s implied indeed...again composit canon it’s allowed in these threads
Okay, that clears up some things. Thank you.
They aren't the same race ANY MORE. Gandalf is mortal, and does indeed die after the battle with the Balrog (and is sent back with less of his limitations by Ilúvatar). That's explicitly stated by Tolkien in his writings on 'The Istari'. The powers of the Istari have been limited. That's explicitly stated in Tolkien's own writings, again 'The Istari'.By same race I mean what you said...they def aren’t just mortals and can’t really die. I believe they are all comparable in power.
If you're arguing against that, you're arguing against Tolkien's own writing. Being helpful, I've quoted all of Tolkien's comments on the matter below.
Gandalf is never shown to use mental assaults or the like (neither is Saruman for that matter, outside of his Voice, which Gandalf doesn't show any signs of having), aside from sort-of hypnotizing Gimli, Legolas, and Aragorn while talking peacefully with them (and there's no evidence that was an outright mental assault or the like). Nor transmutation. We don't simply give people powers. They have to be shown to use them.It’s implied, idk where you're getting we need to see feats? Not everything is on screen or on the pages for it to have happened
Feats are part of how Rumbles works. It's in the rules sticky.
The book states that the entire White Council went to fight 'the Necromancer', and he basically left without putting up a serious fight. Which was part of his plan.The book doesn’t mention him fighting the wraiths or Sauron in the hobbit just that they beat him but used weapons or stuff Sauruman invented I believe...again both book n movie
You never stated this was both books or movies before now. Rumbles rules, if it's not specified it's primary canon. I'm not nit-picking, I'm following the rules based on what you had in the OP.Again both books n movies bro...go make your own thread if you wanna nit pick
If you want composite, great! Now you've stated it, we can work from there.
Gandalf and Sauron are no longer the same race, as Gandalf has been effectively made mortal and had his powers limited.Again they’re the same race
Gandalf does not have the same powers as Saruman, either. If we're arguing that, then we're arguing that Radagast has the same powers and such as well.
Sure, and now that you've stated it's composite, people can work from that.It’s implied indeed...again composit canon it’s allowed in these threads
Last edited by Sharpandpointies; 05-18-2021 at 12:16 PM.
Why are we here?
"Superboy Prime (the yelling guy if he needs clarification)..." - Postmania
"...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
"Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate
Saving some time, I'll just post this now: Tolkien's own thoughts on the matter of the Istari, their mortality, their weaknesses, and their power levels comparative to each other.
Directly quoted from The Istari, by J.R.R. Tolkien, Unfinished Tales (Harper Colilins Paperback, 1998, pages 502-520).
"For with the consent of Eru, [the Valar] sent members of their own high order, but clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject to the fears and pains and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain..." Page 503, emphasis mine. Note the part where Tolkien straight-up states they could be killed.
"...forbidden to reveal themselves in forms of majesty, or seek to rule the wills of Men and Elves by open displays of power, but coming in shapes weak and humble..." Page 503, again.
"Who would go? For they must be mighty, peers of Sauron, but must forgo might, and clothe themselves in flesh so as to treat on equality and win the trust of Elves and Men. But this would imperil them, dimming their wisdom and knowledge, and confusing them with fears, cares, and weariness coming from the flesh." Page 508, emphasis mine.
So, that covers the whole 'mortality, weakening' thing.
As for all of the Istari being equal in power? Again, I turn to Tolkien's own writings (same source as above).
"Saruman is said (e.g. by Gandalf himself) to have been the chief of the Istari - that is, higher in Valinórean stature than the others. Gandalf was evidently the next in order. Radagast is presented as a person of much less power and wisdom." Page 510, emphasis mine.
So no, all of the Istari were not equal and identical in power/powers.
Heck, we know that the Maiar and Valar themselves are all different in powers and strength (again, Tolkien writes that right out for us in The Silmarillion, with a nice breakdown of the Valar from the strongest to weakest, and notations on their areas of power). So even if Gandalf the White is more powerful overall (sure), he doesn't automatically get all of Saruman's powers.
Last edited by Sharpandpointies; 05-18-2021 at 01:23 PM.
Why are we here?
"Superboy Prime (the yelling guy if he needs clarification)..." - Postmania
"...dropping an orca whale made of fire on your enemies is a pretty strong opening move." - Nik
"Why throw punches when you can be making everyone around you sterile mutant corpses?" - Pendaran, regarding Dr. Fate
(eats popcorn)
i'm just here for sharp's tolkien lore dumps.