Detective Comics#966 Discussion and Spoilers (Relevant Superman Developments)

[Sacred Knight]

I'm not looking for extra reasons to dislike him. I'm quite comfortable right now with the fact that sometimes I like him, and sometimes I don't think its a sustainable concept that I'm just going to have to deal with because despite my feelings he is right now very popular. I don't need to and am not making up extra reasons to rag on him. Its simply a hypothesis of the means going through their heads on why Kon was off the table for as long as he has been. Kon was, in fact, not in limbo long before Jon was a thing. He was in consistent publication from his creation to the the end of the New 52. That the New 52 changes were unpopular is irrelevant, as no that is not Jon's fault but I never claimed it was. He needed to be repackaged, yes. But I believe Jon's existence is part of the reason why its taking time. To establish the new legacy version of the name Superboy. That's a perfectly reasonable opinion with some evidence to back up the claim, with absolutely NO snark or maliciousness behind it. There's a strong sensitivity here with the Rebirth Superman mythos like its completely out of bounds to say anything that could be construed as even remotely critical of the process.

[Mongul778]

I'm not looking for extra reasons to dislike him. I'm quite comfortable right now with the fact that sometimes I like him, and sometimes I don't think its a sustainable concept that I'm just going to have to deal with. I don't need to and am not making up extra reasons to rag on him. Its simply a hypothesis of the means going through their heads on why Kon was off the table for as long as he has been. Kon was, in fact, not in limbo long before Jon was a thing. He was in consistent publication from his creation to the the end of the New 52. That the New 52 changes were unpopular is irrelevant, as no that is not Jon's fault but I never claimed it was. These are not mutally exclusive things. He needed to be repackaged, yes. But I believe Jon's existence is part of the reason why its taking time. To establish the new legacy version of the name Superboy. That's a perfectly reasonable opinion with some evidence to back up the claim, with absolutely NO snark or maliciousness behind it.

it's the new 52 that ran him to the ground. Made him a giant convoluted mess, writers didn't want to touch. It was going to be a while before he got course corrected, Jon or no Jon. Look at Jay Garrick. Basically the same deal. New 52 did some dumb **** with the golden age of heroes just as it did with the YJ generations. Seeds have been sown for Jay's return , he got a brief cameo, like Kon just did. But he's not going to make a full return until the timing is right, not because there's another elderly flash around, but because course correcting shouldn't be rushed. So I respectfully disagree that it's all because of setting up the Jon Kent character. There are a number of factors.

[Sacred Knight]

Actually Geoff Johns ran him into the ground but that's neither here nor there. It doesn't have to take long to course correct a character that's been messed up. If they wanted to fix him immediately, they could have. There's no set rule saying that if a character gets messed up, he or she has to be taken off the table for a certain amount of time. It was a choice they made. And that there's a number of factors for why is exactly what I said. I specifically pointed out, and emphasized, that I believed Jon was part of why, not the only reason why. Very possible they're planning a revival of the YJ generation all at the same time, and that plays into it as well. Very possible someone had the idea of "Hey, lets have one aspect of Superman's mythos not fixed right away and lets have that aspect be Conner". But I also fully believe they also had the idea of "let's focus for a while just on Jon in the mantle of the new Superboy to get people used to it".

[Mongul778]

It doesn't have to take long to course correct a character that's been messed up. And that there's a number of factors is exactly what I said. I specifically pointed out, and emphasized, that I believed Jon was part of why, not the only reason why.

depends on how badly they messed a character up. Maybe if it was just a bad run, you could just follow up with a better one or put him on a team book. But with new 52 superboy, nothing short of a total reboot of his character was going to fix that mess.

[Sacred Knight]

Only thing it really is dependent on is how long those crafting the character want to take to fix something. If you really want to you can fix it within one issue. New 52 Superboy was a fake and the real one was off somewhere else. Done. New 52 Superboy is real but his origin was a lie. Done. And so on and so forth. Granted usually to fix continuity issues, they'll take the opportunity to craft it into an actual story in its own right that takes more time, but still, they have the power for it to take as long or as short as they want. Retcons can indeed be immediate and with as much or as little fanfare as they want it to have. All they have to do is make it so. There's nothing inherent about how little or how much something gets messed up that's a flat determining factor on how long it has to take to rectify it.

[Mongul778]

Only thing it really is dependent on is how long those crafting the character want to take to fix it. If you really want to you can fix it within one issue. Granted usually to fix continuity issues, they'll craft it into an actual story in its own right that takes more time, but still, they have the power for it to take as long or as short as they want. Retcons can indeed be immediate if they really want to be. All you have to do is make it so.

you'd almost think dc was having some kind of long term, ongoing mystery about concepts that went away or changed heavily with the reboot, that they were taking their time with as they restored what what's been missing bit by bit.....

[Sacred Knight]

And when did I ever say they couldn't do that? I'm noting they didn't have to. They chose to. What I'm rejecting is your idea that to change certain things is that it has to take a certain amount of time based on the level of change.

They once changed Superman's origin in one issue. They can do these things however they like. They could have brought Kon back immediately if they wanted to. How badly his New 52 run went is completely irrleveant to that. It creates no set time table. That's all I'm saying. They chose a different route for probably more than one reason, and I'll never not believe that one of those reasons wasn't easing fans into the idea of Jon being Superboy, and Conner upgrading to something else at a later date.

[Mongul778]

And when did I ever say they couldn't do that? I'm nothing they didn't have to. They [/I]chose[/I] to. What I'm rejecting is your idea that to change certain things is that it has to take a certain amount of time.

And I'm just saying the slow burn storytelling of the rebirth mystery is probably a bigger reason why they didn't just suddenly restore Tim's origin, give Clark his pre-Flashpoint history back, get rid of the 5 year timeline, bring Wally back, bring back the titan's history, bring back the justice society, all in a couple of course correcting, one shots. Because that wouldn't be nearly as interesting or organic, (or profitable) as making the restoration of the dcu into a giant interconnected saga that'll climax with Superman facing Doctor freaking Manhattan. So that, I believe is the real big reason why Kon didn't just get a one shot and poof he's not shitty anymore. That kind of approach would be lame and forced. They're being smart, and taking the slow burn approach.

Actually Geoff Johns ran him into the ground but that's neither here nor there.

hardly, I mean he revamped him in a controversial way. But the character had considerable success both the comics and in other mediums. New 52 on the other hand, made him toxic.

[TruthAndJustice]

I'm very, very sure the Nu52 Superboy has been erased from everyone's memory. Which is fine by me, because man, what a total mess that was.

[Last Son of Krypton]

They could have brought Kon back immediately if they wanted to. How badly his New 52 run went is completely irrleveant to that. It creates no set time table. That's all I'm saying. They chose a different route for probably more than one reason, and I'll never not believe that one of those reasons wasn't easing fans into the idea of Jon being Superboy, and Conner upgrading to something else at a later date.

It's worth pointing out that Kon disappeared in TT #12 that came out the same month the L&C mini featuring Jon started.
Kon was reintroduced in TT right before Convergence, but after Convergence they change their plan about him.

[Sacred Knight]

hardly, I mean he revamped him in a controversial way. But the character had considerable success both the comics and in other mediums. New 52 on the other hand, made him toxic.

Superboy was a considerable success before Johns. What he did was take an already successful and popular character, and turn him into an entirely different character. He didn't need revamping. That's running a character into the ground in my book. Johns didn't take something that was floundering and made it great, which indeed he can and has done before in the past with other properties that needed it. He took something that was already great and put his own spin on it just for the sake of changing it. Making Superboy part Lex and angsty was one of his kid fantasies that he made a reality just because he could. New 52 had its own problems, I'm not defending one to spite the other. They both sucked, in the end. Granted just prior to Flashpoint, after his return to life, guys like Lemire tried to take him out of that Johns' angst that he had been mired in for so long, and it was definitely appreciated. Maybe we'll get more of that when he comes back. And as a bonus maybe he'll be allowed to have an actual costume again.

[ssupes]

I'm very, very sure the Nu52 Superboy has been erased from everyone's memory. Which is fine by me, because man, what a total mess that was.

Perhaps but wasn't the new 52 superboy the inspiration for Jon?

It's worth pointing out that Kon disappeared in TT #12 that came out the same month the L&C mini featuring Jon started.
Kon was reintroduced in TT right before Convergence, but after Convergence they change their plan about him.

Man, talk about making the switch obvious.

[TheCape]

It's worth pointing out that Kon disappeared in TT #12 that came out the same month the L&C mini featuring Jon started.
Kon was reintroduced in TT right before Convergence, but after Convergence they change their plan about him.

That arc made more sense now (now that it was difficult, considering the material).

[TheCape]

Granted just prior to Flashpoint, after his return to life, guys like Lemire tried to take him out of that Johns' angst that he had been mired in for so long, and it was definitely appreciated. Maybe we'll get more of that when he comes back.

Most of the fans from the Young Justice generation don't have nice things to said about Johns take on then in TT. Althougth both Tim and Kon managed to get out that for a bit, at least before the reboot they have some interesting directions for both characthers. Even they were becoming in something that they weren't really mean to be originally. Sadly Bart and Cassie didn't have the same luck (althougth i think that J.T Krul did a decent job with then in his TT run before flashpoint). I hope that their comeback pay off.

[adrikito]

I'm very, very sure the Nu52 Superboy has been erased from everyone's memory. Which is fine by me, because man, what a total mess that was.

I imaginated the same(erased from everyone memory) but according another fans seems that the N52 Teen Titans never called him Conner Kent... He was with they since the begin.. He was only Superman ally, nothing more..

I hope that despite his N52 base they can change certain things of him, costume, origins..

In my opinion no matter if we see a different superboy than n52 superboy, in Teen Titans flashbacks for Superman rebirth consequences or better, when we see superboy again..