Is so stupid that Valeria Richards hangs out with Dr. Doom...

[Michael Watkins]

he skinned an innocent woman alive

he murdered Cassie Lang

[Abe]

I'll add that that theme is probably the key to understand the ending of Secret Wars. At the end Reed has his family with him - the story starts in FF Dark Reign. And that's how he rebuild the multiverse. Being the father with his son - and superheroing no more.

[Iron Maiden]

do you want us to judge Doom by Lee/Kirby or the new stuff ?

That's your choice not mine. I can try and persuade but in the end you decide. It's not that I've ever had any success changing your view anyway.

I think there's a lot of room in Doom's origin for writers to augment what's already there. Brubaker was very successful with this in Books of Doom. There are only two scenes as I recall that shows Reed and Victor's interactions in college. And when you look at them from Victor's POV , Reed is making a pest of himself. He wants to talk him into rooming together and then he goes into his room and gets nosy and starts going through his stuff. That certainly didn't make for a good start.

[The Ray]

If you want to read a comic book about what it means to be a parent, what it means to be a kid, then the book is for you, really.

The book in which Reed and Sue let their 3 years old daughter under the care of a violent narcissistic dictator that tries to kill them and has tortured their first son is a good book about parenting?

Honestly, I'm shocked!

Why isn't Hickman's name as recognized as Hemingway? Faulkner? James Joyce? Fitsgerald?

If he can write a book about good parenting with THAT premise, he is, absolutely, the best writer ever witnessed by humankind.

[SuperiorIronman]

Yeah, but now that excuse doesn't work anymore. Reed and Sue know how their 3 years old daughter spends her time and are okay with that. Is that good parenting?

And how about Valeria herself? With all her intelligence, she isn't smart enough to understand that she shouldn't be hanging out with the guy that does his best to destroy her family?



How many criminal cousins that try to kill you and destroy your family do you have?

If you actually have any, would you let your 3 years old daughter hang out with such an individual? Would you consider yourself a good parenting while doing it?

Valeria went off on her own without them knowing.

She's also intelligent, intelligence in quantum mechanics or algebra does not mean someone is mature enough to understand why Victor is a bad guy. She's only a toddler, and has grown up around people who not only tolerate him, but the world she lives in. Why would she think any less of Victor when she not only gets what she wants from him, but he is also welcoming enough he just lets her in every time she needs something? He's also the reason shes even alive so that also counts for something.

[CaptCleghorn]

he skinned an innocent woman alive

he murdered Cassie Lang

The skinning was an action that was reprehensible. It was something that made us go "WTF?" as it was something Waid had written for shock value and to show that Doom was just a typical mustache twirling villain.

Cassie Lang I didn't read.

[Michael Watkins]

Valeria went off on her own without them knowing.

She's also intelligent, intelligence in quantum mechanics or algebra does not mean someone is mature enough to understand why Victor is a bad guy. She's only a toddler, and has grown up around people who not only tolerate him, but the world she lives in. Why would she think any less of Victor when she not only gets what she wants from him, but he is also welcoming enough he just lets her in every time she needs something?

reason 1: he sent them to hell

reason 2: disfigured her father

reason 3: possessed Ben Grimm; getting him killed

[Iron Maiden]

Yeah, but now that excuse doesn't work anymore. Reed and Sue know how their 3 years old daughter spends her time and are okay with that. Is that good parenting?

And how about Valeria herself? With all her intelligence, she isn't smart enough to understand that she shouldn't be hanging out with the guy that does his best to destroy her family?



How many criminal cousins that try to kill you and destroy your family do you have?

If you actually have any, would you let your 3 years old daughter hang out with such an individual? Would you consider yourself a good parenting while doing it?

Since I don't have any acquaintances or relatives who are the monarch of a small kingdom in Europe and are masters of science and sorcery it's highly unlikely to happen to me. It's fiction. Just like it's highly unlikely that there are really 3 year olds with the level of sophistication that Val has. I view her as a teen-ager, the age Franklin should be if there wasn't the screwly sliding time line in the MU>

[Abe]

I'm getting tired of talking to the other guy so I will put this out there for you, mon ami. Don't you think that after all these years that there is a peculiar kind of intimacy (and I am not referring to the sexual context) between the Richards family and Victor? It's like he's the black sheep cousin from Europe that hardly anyone in the family likes and the feeling is mutual. Other than Boris, Victor has known Reed and the others longer than he has known any members of his family, who died long ago. They've broken bread together, most recently when Reed and Stephen Strange had dinner with Victor and Kristoff to discuss the incursion over Latveria. Of course, they told Victor to keep out of it ....they were so sure they could take care of it without him. I think it makes more sense to include him, and in this case tolerating the relationship between Val and Doom, than not to....it satisfies his ego that Reed's daughter accepts him when Reed has a history of being dismissive of him. Heck Reed even got into that mini feud with Hank over Pym Particles because he claimed he knew more about them.

Of course I agree with everything, mon amie.


And of course I like the "black sheep cousin from Europe" vision of Doom a lot. You know that, as a European myself, I always tend to think that what we read in those US comics is a kind of deformed version of the true history - some CIA propaganda...

More seriously Marvel should publish a few fake Latverian comics. And Wakandan ones, Atlantean ones... even some from Atilan... It could be fun and imaginative - I'm thinking about the art too.

[Michael Watkins]

The skinning was an action that was reprehensible. It was something that made us go "WTF?" as it was something Waid had written for shock value and to show that Doom was just a typical mustache twirling villain.

i'll point you to the storyline in which Doom summoned the Fantastic Four to the Microverse. he is a typical mustache twirling villain. his manners are there to lure shallow people into thinking that he is more.

[Iron Maiden]

The skinning was an action that was reprehensible. It was something that made us go "WTF?" as it was something Waid had written for shock value and to show that Doom was just a typical mustache twirling villain.

Cassie Lang I didn't read.

The Cassie Lang one is questionable since there was a full out melee on the lawn of the Avengers mansion. As a responsible father, Scott should have taken her out of there. Lang attacked Doom and Doom swatted back. Cassie thought he was dead (he lived) and she struck back. So it wasn't exactly unprovoked . The way writer Allen Heinberg dialogues it, Doom's intentions are not "Now I'm gonna kill you" but "back off, kid"

[The Ray]

Valeria went off on her own without them knowing.

They TODDLER daughter went to a dictatorship in another continent on her own without them knowing and this is a book about good parenting?

I'm contacting the CPS.

She's also intelligent, intelligence in quantum mechanics or algebra does not mean someone is mature enough to understand why Victor is a bad guy. She's only a toddler, and has grown up around people who not only tolerate him, but the world she lives in. Why would she think any less of Victor when she not only gets what she wants from him, but he is also welcoming enough he just lets her in every time she needs something?

Then she also has a skewed sense of right or wrong? Yet Reed and Sue are okay with her hanging out with a villain dictator?

[SuperiorIronman]

reason 1: he sent them to hell

reason 2: disfigured her father

reason 3: had her mother murder Uncle Ben.

1. They go to the Negative Zone for family fun

2. Healing is fairly normal for superheroes and in the MU it's fairly mundane to not only fix you on the genetic level it can grow extra limbs

3. He's not dead right now and anybody who is still dead will be back soon enough. It's never permanent for a big name and you shouldn't treat it like it is. Also in-universe it's been like 15 years so in-universe he's pretty much dead for a week.

[CaptCleghorn]

i'll point you to the storyline in which Doom summoned the Fantastic Four to the Microverse. he is a typical mustache twirling villain. his manners are there to lure shallow people into thinking that he is more.

If only Doom hadn't changed in the last 55 years. Or the FF. After all, two of them were WW2 vets who had flown to "beat the commies".

[SuperiorIronman]

They TODDLER daughter went to a dictatorship in another continent on her own without them knowing and this is a book about good parenting?

I'm contacting the CPS.



Then she also has a skewed sense of right or wrong? Yet Reed and Sue are okay with her hanging out with a villain dictator?

Of course not. Dude it's superheroes you might want to suspend disbelief cause some things don't apply.