Disney thinks they are too big to fail!

[jetengine]

Rotten Tomatos is listened too much frankly, with people having no critical opinion beyind what a group of journalists with their own biases say. Its also easily manipulated as The Last Jedi has shown, considering the hundreds of Anti-Star wars posts that turned up in The Shape of The Water.

[Powerboy]

Sure. I mean I would personally rank it as one of the best in the series to date, but there were some things I think could've been fine-tuned.

I would also rank it as one of the better ones but far from perfect. Some explanations and background would have helped. I don't mean Rey having a background but just things being explained more.

The "argument" seems to come down to the idea that he'd learned his lessons already and had regressed. While I wouldn't say that everyone who wanted a more "heroic" is wrong for that opinion (I have respect for people who are civil when disagreeing and discussing stuff), I personally thought it made him a more interesting character seeing him have to pick himself up, and, in some ways, become the legend build around him in the process. (In any event, I will die on the hill that it was Mark Hamill's best performance in the series to date.)

You could argue either way on what Luke would be 30 years later and it would be legitimate and depend on circumstances. I don't blame people for wanting Luke to be a paragon of virtue but I also thought this made him very interesting, not necessarily more interesting than when he found out Vader was his father or confronted the Emperor but about equal. Given that he has 30 more years of experience as an actor and was also given some really good material to play, it's not surprising that this was Mark Hamill's best performance ever as Luke. I also thought that while the things he said to Kylo Ryn seemed strange and cruel, he was trying to create a distraction and he sensed that Ryn was not ready to change at that moment.

Yeah, I have seen a few conspiracy theories that the critics were bought off or something like that. I've got no time for nonsense like that myself. That is a good point though; how much of the chatter and disagreement is on the actual craftsmanship and how much is people wanting their wants validated?

Yeah that comedy routine of this conspiracy where Disney owns all the critics and Disney movies don't get criticized when they deserve it continues even in this thread. The real reason is generally that the criticisms a lot of people have are not valid criticisms. I've taken classes myself where we were told that the worst, most invalid and dishonest criticism a person can ever make when writing a review is that it's not the way the reviewer wanted the story to go or how he would have done it. In other words, the worst of all sins is not reviewing a work on it's own merits. Critics judge movies on the actual craftmanship, as you said. They are looking at both technical factors and also what themes the movie presents and how well those themes are presented. But look at the fan reviews. "I don't like the SJW themes; Hyperspace doesn't work that way; Rey is a Mary Sue". "I personally don't like it; I personally don't like it; I personally don't like it."

I find that if you look at the Star Wars canon as a whole and the rules of the Force, Rey is actually pretty darn typical for an above-average Force-user (and is far from the most Mary Sue-like character we've ever had, if we must use that term). While I have seen some legitimate criticism raised about the character (stuff I would disagree with but from people who seem to be arguing in good faith), most of it seems to come from a place of sexism, when you look at the actual arguments.

It's a movie where people are doing things with the Force beyond anything we've seen before. They could have just thrown in an explanation for the diehard fans that something has changed and people can do things well beyond what was possible before. But, within that context, Rey isn't doing anything all that extraordinary. Luke had never even heard of the Force. Yet, by the end of the same day, he was parrying blaster bolts from a droid while blindfolded from one lesson. Rey has long known about the Force and, if I recall, heard all sorts of stories and at least has a good idea what someone can do if they use the Force. There's also the idea that Kylo Ryn trying to read her mind awakened something within her. Again, Johnson tends strongly to let the audience surmise things rather than explain.

I think Solo is a less "offensive" movie, hence the more muted response; it didn't really challenge anyone's perceptions, so people who just wanted nostalgia-heavy comfort food couldn't complain that it was ruining the franchise, it was less diverse, meaning the bigots had less to be triggered over, and that sort of thing. From what I've seen personally, the only attention haters give it is out of general hated for Disney Star Wars in general and to use it's low numbers to "prove" that fans hate the other movies Disney made and are turning away from the brand (a bad argument, but whatever). I also think it being a non-Saga movie may also have muted its status in the franchise overall; Rogue One was a success on all accounts but it's rarely discussed in the broader scope of the franchise in these conversations, either to attack or defend Disney.

Yeah, there was a lack of interest but nothing provocative with "Solo".

I think both the haters and the lovers are making the mistake of believing that the Internet represents the overall audience and that Rotten Tomatoes scores are accurate ways to poll a movie's success. Yeah, fan entitlement is everywhere.

[WebLurker]

I would also rank it as one of the better ones but far from perfect. Some explanations and background would have helped. I don't mean Rey having a background but just things being explained more.

Okay. Seems like all the movies in one way or another tend to go lighter on the background, but I can see what you mean.

You could argue either way on what Luke would be 30 years later and it would be legitimate and depend on circumstances. I don't blame people for wanting Luke to be a paragon of virtue but I also thought this made him very interesting, not necessarily more interesting than when he found out Vader was his father or confronted the Emperor but about equal. Given that he has 30 more years of experience as an actor and was also given some really good material to play, it's not surprising that this was Mark Hamill's best performance ever as Luke. I also thought that while the things he said to Kylo Ryn seemed strange and cruel, he was trying to create a distraction and he sensed that Ryn was not ready to change at that moment.

Yeah. I'm personally really skeptical that Kylo will get a redemption story, but we'll see on that.

Yeah that comedy routine of this conspiracy where Disney owns all the critics and Disney movies don't get criticized when they deserve it continues even in this thread. The real reason is generally that the criticisms a lot of people have are not valid criticisms. I've taken classes myself where we were told that the worst, most invalid and dishonest criticism a person can ever make when writing a review is that it's not the way the reviewer wanted the story to go or how he would have done it. In other words, the worst of all sins is not reviewing a work on it's own merits. Critics judge movies on the actual craftmanship, as you said. They are looking at both technical factors and also what themes the movie presents and how well those themes are presented. But look at the fan reviews. "I don't like the SJW themes; Hyperspace doesn't work that way; Rey is a Mary Sue". "I personally don't like it; I personally don't like it; I personally don't like it."

I don't have a problem with fans or anyone else explaining why they didn't like something personally in and of itself, but when it gets passed off as factual criticism, that's the problem (and I see it all the time on YouTube and forums for any genre of fiction). You need to be able to say I liked/didn't like it for XYZ, but the movie is well made/not well made for reasons ABC.

It's a movie where people are doing things with the Force beyond anything we've seen before. They could have just thrown in an explanation for the diehard fans that something has changed and people can do things well beyond what was possible before.

The movies always introduced new Force powers without explanation. Honestly I don't really see anything that different here.

But, within that context, Rey isn't doing anything all that extraordinary. Luke had never even heard of the Force. Yet, by the end of the same day, he was parrying blaster bolts from a droid while blindfolded from one lesson. Rey has long known about the Force and, if I recall, heard all sorts of stories and at least has a good idea what someone can do if they use the Force.

Yeah, the double-standard is just mind-boggling (and I think shows that the franchise has a decent number of sexist fans).

There's also the idea that Kylo Ryn trying to read her mind awakened something within her. Again, Johnson tends strongly to let the audience surmise things rather than explain.

That's actually not too far off the mark. In the novelizations (all canon), Rey learned the mind trick in TFA from Kylo trying to use it on her and the TLJ novel apparently has information indicating that she's learning more stuff like that through the Force Skyping, I guess a bit like X-Men's Rogue's power-stealing abilities.

Yeah, there was a lack of interest but nothing provocative with "Solo".

I do find it hysterically funny that there "fans" who hate the franchise becoming more inclusive (e.g. the "anti-SJW" conspiracy theorists and/or those who think Star Wars is a boys only club) and use insane troll logic to argue that the inclusiveness is destroying the franchise, given that of the movies made to date, Solo, the arguably least "inclusive" movie was the only one to fail to date. In other words, diversity is selling better then what they claim they want.

[Powerboy]

I don't have a problem with fans or anyone else explaining why they didn't like something personally in and of itself, but when it gets passed off as factual criticism, that's the problem (and I see it all the time on YouTube and forums for any genre of fiction). You need to be able to say I liked/didn't like it for XYZ, but the movie is well made/not well made for reasons ABC.

Yeah same. I don't have any problem with people just saying, "That's not what I wanted to see." But some fans don't do that. They turn personal dislike into "The movie sucks".

Yeah, the double-standard is just mind-boggling (and I think shows that the franchise has a decent number of sexist fans).

The biggest criticism of Rey seems to be that she had no training or that she can do almost everything well. But that's Anakin. That's somewhat Luke. That's Batman to go out of the SW setting. And some of the criticisms are not even accurate. She makes mistakes. I've heard youtube videos about how she's a Mary Sue because, "She never picked up a lightsaber before and now she's beating a guy who has trained for years and is well on his way apparently to be the Sith Apprentice with no explanation for how she can do that." I mean, it's ridiculous. It's like the fact that he was badly wounded to the point his leg and side were going numb and he was bleeding all over the place is irrelevant. It's like the fact that, even with that handicap, he fought and beat her within seconds is irrelevant. Then the fact that after fighting her while so badly wounded, he then had to fight Finn doesn't matter. Then, having to fight her again while badly wounded after fighting someone else doesn't matter. The fact that he was about to beat her again until he said one wrong thing and she got mad, letting the Dark Side in (which was, thematically, a weakness Luke pointed out, that she is so susceptible to the Dark Side that she sometimes is drawn right to it) and the Dark Side gave her the power to defeat him.

But it's like all that- the bad wound, fighting Finn and everything else- is irrelevant. No, no. She just beat him *with no explanation*. Yes, the double standard is strong.

I do find it hysterically funny that there "fans" who hate the franchise becoming more inclusive (e.g. the "anti-SJW" conspiracy theorists and/or those who think Star Wars is a boys only club) and use insane troll logic to argue that the inclusiveness is destroying the franchise, given that of the movies made to date, Solo, the arguably least "inclusive" movie was the only one to fail to date. In other words, diversity is selling better then what they claim they want.

I saw one video where the guy was going on about how Disney is destroying SW by alienating conservatives and playing to liberals because liberals don't buy the merchandise or see the movies multiple times. WTF???? I'd like to see some evidence on this.

[The Negative Zone]

Yeah same. I don't have any problem with people just saying, "That's not what I wanted to see." But some fans don't do that. They turn personal dislike into "The movie sucks".

I don't care if people think it sucks, but when people try to invent bizarre reasons to morally justify their dislike of a movie. The movie didn't alienate or attack you, you just didn't like it.

[Jokerz79]

I don't care if people think it sucks, but when people try to invent bizarre reasons to morally justify their dislike of a movie. The movie didn't alienate or attack you, you just didn't like it.

LOTR Films, Harry Potter, MoS, all good to great films all films I dislike just not my cup of tea.

Cannon Films, 80's Italian Horror Movies, Slasher Films whole lot of bad in that group but I love almost all I come across.

Prequels, Solo, and TLJ I think are extremely well made from a technical level but have a lot of nonsensical story issues and aren't good. I added Prequels to show it's not a Disney Kennedy thing and I do like Rogue One and TFA.

I think there are two issues at play one is the issue you were saying of people treating their opinion as fact and also there is the issue of dismissing even valid arguments especially if the film is part of some kind of "Culture War".

[The Negative Zone]

I think there are two issues at play one is the issue you were saying of people treating their opinion as fact and also there is the issue of dismissing even valid arguments especially if the film is part of some kind of "Culture War".

Yeah I hate people dragging culture war nonsense into discussions on the quality of movies in general.

[ed2962]

LOTR Films, Harry Potter, MoS, all good to great films all films I dislike just not my cup of tea.

Cannon Films, 80's Italian Horror Movies, Slasher Films whole lot of bad in that group but I love almost all I come across.

Prequels, Solo, and TLJ I think are extremely well made from a technical level but have a lot of nonsensical story issues and aren't good. I added Prequels to show it's not a Disney Kennedy thing and I do like Rogue One and TFA.

I think there are two issues at play one is the issue you were saying of people treating their opinion as fact and also there is the issue of dismissing even valid arguments especially if the film is part of some kind of "Culture War".

I agree with this completely. While I think there is value in looking at pop culture through a critical social or moral lens, many folks are are just out to get clicks by playing into the whole anti-SJW outrage crowd.

[WebLurker]

Yeah same. I don't have any problem with people just saying, "That's not what I wanted to see." But some fans don't do that. They turn personal dislike into "The movie sucks".

Oh, yeah.

The biggest criticism of Rey seems to be that she had no training or that she can do almost everything well. But that's Anakin. That's somewhat Luke. That's Batman to go out of the SW setting.

Thought Batman trained for years. In the case of the others, I think the counter-argument is essentially that we saw them train under a master. That, of course, ignores that Anakin was already doing some stuff before his training, we've seen plenty of Force-users do certain stuff untrained in the canon, and we saw Luke learn new skills on his own in the movies like Rey did. It also ignores that Rey isn't an instant master of everything Force (three tries with the mind trick, she completely botched the reading of her Force vision in TLJ, that kind of thing).

In regards to the other stuff (piloting, mechanics), it was established that those were her starting skills (and funny how no one complains about Luke being a fighter pilot at the end of ANH, given that his being a pilot had as much set up as Rey got in her first movie).

And some of the criticisms are not even accurate. She makes mistakes.

Oh, yeah; she lied to herself for years about her family coming back and was willing to screw up her life rather then confront that (TFA), is not exactly good at reading people (she was the only one who believed Finn's lie in TFA, handled her crises on Takodana in the worst way possible (TFA), completely messed up on Kylo Ren in TLJ, and made the same kind of mistake about other characters in the Before the Awakening novella -- although there were understandable reasons she'd make those mistakes), screwed up with the wrong fuse (TFA), is a bad shot with a blaster (TFA), was willing to mess with the dark side, even if she has come back from it so far (TLJ), and thought Kylo Ren would turn (TLJ). Course, the the "she's a bad character because she's perfect" crowd never bring those points up...

I've heard youtube videos about how she's a Mary Sue because, "She never picked up a lightsaber before and now she's beating a guy who has trained for years and is well on his way apparently to be the Sith Apprentice with no explanation for how she can do that." I mean, it's ridiculous. It's like the fact that he was badly wounded to the point his leg and side were going numb and he was bleeding all over the place is irrelevant. It's like the fact that, even with that handicap, he fought and beat her within seconds is irrelevant. Then the fact that after fighting her while so badly wounded, he then had to fight Finn doesn't matter. Then, having to fight her again while badly wounded after fighting someone else doesn't matter. The fact that he was about to beat her again until he said one wrong thing and she got mad, letting the Dark Side in (which was, thematically, a weakness Luke pointed out, that she is so susceptible to the Dark Side that she sometimes is drawn right to it) and the Dark Side gave her the power to defeat him.

But it's like all that- the bad wound, fighting Finn and everything else- is irrelevant. No, no. She just beat him *with no explanation*. Yes, the double standard is strong.

Kylo didn't fight her before Finn; he just shoved her into a tree. Course he would've had to hotfoot it to get ahead of them, so that's a lot of exertion on his injuries right there.

I don't think Rey tapped into the dark side immediately, but went there over the course of the duel (the novelization does seem to confirm that), but yeah, start of the problem, even if she did pull back that time when she realized what it was.

Yeah, there's double standards the whole way, not to mention goalpost shifting. It's been pointed out that Rey's ability to use the saber was her taking what she knew about quarterstaff fighting and applying that to the new weapon (this was well-set up and you can actually see it in her moves during the final fight). But then you got people arguing over the plausibility of her doing that, despite it being a perfectly acceptable piece of movie logic (and accepting Luke doing the same with his piloting skills in the original film).

Pretty much anything that can be goalpost shifted has been shifted. How come she she can fly instantly like a pro? That came out of nowhere! She self identifies as a pilot, specifically says that she has had actual flying experience before, it's strongly implied that the Force was giving her skills a boost, the tie-ins have explained that she had an old flight training program she had been level-grinding on that max possible difficulty -- and she had a rough start and would've been shot down without Finn, but whatever. But when did she find the time to do that, huh? Huh? [sane person eyeball rolls here]

She speaks multiple languages despite growing up without formal education! Mary Sue! First of all, genius, the previous movies have shown that people tend to be multilingual in the Star Wars universe, including people in her position. She was also shown to have grown up in a multilingual environment, and, according to the tie-ins, practiced languages to occupy her free time. But there were no Wookiees on Jakku! How could she learn the Wookiee language? Mary Sue! How do you know there weren't Wookiees there? Besides, it has been established that Wookiees did visit often on. On top of the that, the point of Rey understanding Chewie is to show how sheltered Finn is.

Same with her mechanics skills (having had to work with this machines her entire life is apparently not enough now). Heck, I've even seen people try to claim that she has to be a Mary Sue since all the good guys seem to like her without reason (look genius, they do establish her a fairly likable person once she's willing to open up and, with every single character, it's extremely well-spelled out why they bond with her, or at least there's extremely obvious inferences why). It's gotten so bad that one of the big Star Wars forums out there actually had to ban calling the character a Mary Sue under any circumstances, much like they have or I think they will have to ban calling Finn a janitor and Kylo a school shooter. It crazy.

I saw one video where the guy was going on about how Disney is destroying SW by alienating conservatives and playing to liberals because liberals don't buy the merchandise or see the movies multiple times. WTF???? I'd like to see some evidence on this.

I will believe there are people claiming this; I've seen similar claims about other stuff. I don't think they have any evidence, just their own biases. I've seen some people spin these arguments that toy sales are down, therefore fans are rejecting Disney Star Wars because of it's alleged SJW agenda (hate to break it to them, but they stuff they're complaining against was a part of the franchise since long ago). Funny how they never really cite their sources or offer any proof beyond anecdotes.

[jetengine]

The Toys arent selling because Toys in general arent selling. Digital is killing them adding into the fact is that TLJ didnt offer much new stuff beyond characters in different clothes.

[GOLGO 13]

The Toys arent selling because Toys in general arent selling. Digital is killing them adding into the fact is that TLJ didnt offer much new stuff beyond characters in different clothes.

Boys don't want to play with "dolls/girl-AF". Boys want spaceships, aliens/robots/monsters.

LOL! Look at some of those walls & walls of texts.

[jetengine]

Boys don't want to play with "dolls/girl-AF". Boys want spaceships, aliens/robots/monsters.

LOL! Look at some of those walls & walls of texts.

No its literally because toys are suffering a severe downswing at the moment, irrelevant of the toys gender. The last guy who made that asseration lost out on serious Black Widow money and Disney are very much in the buisness of getting 'all the money'

[skyvolt2000]

I will believe there are people claiming this; I've seen similar claims about other stuff. I don't think they have any evidence, just their own biases. I've seen some people spin these arguments that toy sales are down, therefore fans are rejecting Disney Star Wars because of it's alleged SJW agenda (hate to break it to them, but they stuff they're complaining against was a part of the franchise since long ago). Funny how they never really cite their sources or offer any proof beyond anecdotes.

I can name a guy who made 20 videos bashing Star Wars LJ. You should see how much he HATED Black Panther (claim that film was going to bomb and put Disney out of business) and now Cap Marvel. He hates it so much he's trying to get a certain group to support his crowd funding books to counter Ms Marvel and every female lead book at Marvel. On the day Cap Marvel comes out.
Oh here is the NUGGET about him-he has NOT seen Star Wars Last Jedi (he bashed that film bash on trailers ONLY) and has not bought a Marvel book for 21 years. He bashes Marvel because of certain youtubers and parrots what they say with even nastier commentary.

And he parrots the look at the toys collecting dust on the shelves narrative. ESPECIALLY anything toy line with females-see DC Super Hero Girls, WWE Divas, Marvel Rising & Star Wars.


How is it a SJW thing when you are dealing with 40+ years? Yes you will see some toys collect DUST-why? Because you keep making the same set of folks-sooner than later no one will want them. It happens with every toy line.
The toys that sell out are the ones that are FEW in number. And especially if they are POC.

I go toy hunting.

You could NOT find a Donald Glover Lando figure in stores in my city until 2 weeks before Christmas. Duke Thomas could NOT stay on the shelves here. Finn figures are still hard to find. Same with Vixen, Jessica Cruz, New Day, Shelton Benjamin and Black Panther movie toys. Marvel Rising Patriot? No store had him in stock online or offline. I had a battle trying to get one from Target. Killmonger toys with Michael B Jordan's face-lets no even talk about him. That was another fight.

Lets not forget what some stores do with toys. I have seen store A put out the toys at the expect price. While store B threw them on CLEARANCE the moment they arrived. I saw that with DC toys. Especially Wonder Woman, Justice League and Batman. So if I live near that store-I am going there for the clearance.

Also remember Toy R Us kept getting new toys as they were going out of business. Right as Avengers End Game, Incredibles 2 & Antman 2 were coming out. Funny this is even at 90% off no one wanted the WWE Divas or Dc Super Hero Girls. Everything Star Wars & Marvel sold out.

[CliffHanger2]

Eh SW toy line is suffering. I think it started with Rogue One, kids don't want dead characters which is why you can find a lot of them for 5$. Solo figs haven't fared much better probably cuz a lot of the cast died in that too. Add to that the promotion of the movie was horrible. TLJ was divisive but I Finn and Rey sell pretty well because TFA was so popular. The new archive bounty hunters sell out pretty quick from what I've seen.

Marvel Legends is doing great tho.

[Midvillian1322]

I can name a guy who made 20 videos bashing Star Wars LJ. You should see how much he HATED Black Panther (claim that film was going to bomb and put Disney out of business) and now Cap Marvel. He hates it so much he's trying to get a certain group to support his crowd funding books to counter Ms Marvel and every female lead book at Marvel. On the day Cap Marvel comes out.
Oh here is the NUGGET about him-he has NOT seen Star Wars Last Jedi (he bashed that film bash on trailers ONLY) and has not bought a Marvel book for 21 years. He bashes Marvel because of certain youtubers and parrots what they say with even nastier commentary.

And he parrots the look at the toys collecting dust on the shelves narrative. ESPECIALLY anything toy line with females-see DC Super Hero Girls, WWE Divas, Marvel Rising & Star Wars.


How is it a SJW thing when you are dealing with 40+ years? Yes you will see some toys collect DUST-why? Because you keep making the same set of folks-sooner than later no one will want them. It happens with every toy line.
The toys that sell out are the ones that are FEW in number. And especially if they are POC.

I go toy hunting.

You could NOT find a Donald Glover Lando figure in stores in my city until 2 weeks before Christmas. Duke Thomas could NOT stay on the shelves here. Finn figures are still hard to find. Same with Vixen, Jessica Cruz, New Day, Shelton Benjamin and Black Panther movie toys. Marvel Rising Patriot? No store had him in stock online or offline. I had a battle trying to get one from Target. Killmonger toys with Michael B Jordan's face-lets no even talk about him. That was another fight.

Lets not forget what some stores do with toys. I have seen store A put out the toys at the expect price. While store B threw them on CLEARANCE the moment they arrived. I saw that with DC toys. Especially Wonder Woman, Justice League and Batman. So if I live near that store-I am going there for the clearance.

Also remember Toy R Us kept getting new toys as they were going out of business. Right as Avengers End Game, Incredibles 2 & Antman 2 were coming out. Funny this is even at 90% off no one wanted the WWE Divas or Dc Super Hero Girls. Everything Star Wars & Marvel sold out.

Black Panther still has a whole section similar to spiderman at alot.of Walmarts I go to. After civil war came out the demand way out weighed the supply. Toy r us had a waiting list for the mask and gloves toy set. Then with his own movie and infinity war they ramped up the amount of Black panther toys you see around. And hes had a strong presence ever since.

Given how big the movie was iono why there isnt more Aquaman toys I know they didnt seel well for Justice League but leading up to his movie they had some stuff the last few times I was in Walmart I didnt see any Aquaman anything other then some shirts. Weirdly I saw some shazam toys for the first time today... still havent seen any Captain Marvel stuff iono if they waiting or if they going by the dumb wise tale that girls dont play with toys.