Who has killed more innocents throughout the years: Namor or Batroc?

[The Cool Thatguy]

Sure. But he's actually sorry about it.

I thought it was retconned that SS tried to find uninhabited worlds but Big G got fed up with that and mindwiped him just to find regular worlds.

[CaptCleghorn]

Sue's emotional state was one of its lowest points, I think we FF fans like myself can cut her some slack if she turned to Namor while ignoring whatever ignoble deeds he committed. At any rate, the fact that the false attack on New York staged by Namor and the Inhumans caused a near-sudden 180° change in her mind shows that her commitment wasn't absolute.

I think any FF fan on here would admit Sue's got a liking for Namor. It hasn't been romantic for a long time, but still she likes and respects him in spite of his acting like a dog in heat at times. It ain't textbook perfect, but it appears to have found a level that the characters engaged in the comic book marriage can live with.

[The Ray]

I think any FF fan on here would admit Sue's got a liking for Namor. It hasn't been romantic for a long time, but still she likes and respects him in spite of his acting like a dog in heat at times. It ain't textbook perfect, but it appears to have found a level that the characters engaged in the comic book marriage can live with.

Poor Reed.

If Reed started killing civilians, would Sue overlook his misdeeds the same way she does with Namor?

[CaptCleghorn]

Poor Reed.

If Reed started killing civilians, would Sue overlook his misdeeds the same way she does with Namor?

You're reading neither the previous posts nor the books they're referring to. That would help your post content immensely.

[The Ray]

You're reading neither the previous posts nor the books they're referring to. That would help your post content immensely.

Man, it was a simple question. Yes or no.

Whenever Sue decided that a relationship with Namor wouldn't be a bad idea, she also decided to overlook him killing civilians. Period. No way around that.

Would she do the same for Reed?

[Ravin' Ray]

It's important to remember that Sue only changed her mind when Johnny was injured.

And as emphasized, as she was written then Sue was not at her most rational.

I suppose the rejoinder would be is Sue rational in staying with Reed?

[Reviresco]

Hickman's run was actually charitable towards Namor. (He actually did save the world once or twice, albeit in a way that some people might not be able to accept.)

It depends on what you mean by charitable. Even among Namor fans it is polarizing run. Making a superhero a repeat world killer is not charitable, IMO. I will admit his Namor was the most interesting character in New Avengers.

The flood was actually referenced in a 1990 Human Torch miniseries (by Roy Thomas).

I am guessing that Marvel is also ignoring Namor's first appearance....where he killed 3 divers for fun.

No, Marvel continuity is NOT ignoring the divers that Namor killed in his first appearance -- it's appeared in several issues. However, he didn't kill them for "fun." In fact, he had no idea that they were living creatures, when he cut their air hoses. He thought they were invading machines.

I just checked Roy Thomas' Human Torch mini-series. The 1941 tidal wave is NOT referenced at all. The only tidal wave mentioned is the one Namor STOPPED in China in an All Winners story, I believe.

It is not a disservice to Namor. Namor has no purpose other than to be in comics. And, those were good comics. If that means Namor has to be a bad guy, it is unquestionably better than being in bad comics.

I disagree. These comic book characters aren't the fictional creation of a single writer for a single purpose for a single work of fiction. They are characters that have accumulated a history and characterization over years, and in Namor's case, for almost 80 years through a variety of authors, not to mention the subjective resonance they have with their fans. In some ways they are collective creation, a sort of proto-myth making. Trashing a character with almost 80 years of history and characterization, making him open to object of hate thread like this, and more importantly harder to use in the shared universe of the MU, IS a disservice to the character.

On a more cynical note, these characters are corporate IP. It's abundantly clear that the movies and merchandising drive the character push and stories -- see Nick Fury Jr.

[Reviresco]

Some points I'd like to make about the original 1940 flooding;



Besides Atlantis there were several undersea kingdoms that were devastated and voted to go to war with the surface.

Namor was chosen as leader and opted to unite and force the Axis/Allies to end their war but was quickly manipulated by a refugee princess named Rathia.

Although many military personnel(mostly Axis) were killed it's left ambiguous as to whether civilians were.

The flooding of NYC was prepared for and wasn't treated as a big deal.


After being confronted by the Human Torch Namor repents and attempts to demobilize his forces. Rathia captures him and orders his execution.

It then becomes a Sub-Mariner/Human Torch team up.

Namor gets a pardon from FDR.

Great scans! I love the craziness of those Golden Age comics. Thanks for posting them. I'd completely forgotten about Rathia. Poor Namor. Such a sucker for the ladies. She wasn't part of the Marvels, IIRC.

Not sure if you read the story but Namor was not very familiar with the surface world and thought the divers were robots raiding a sunken ship. And he didn't kill them for fun.

maybe he should have used his words.

Yes, because every superhero in existence handles invading alien robots by talking to them. "Hail and salutations Death Ray Toaster stealing my stuff! Let's be friends!"

[Reviresco]

How is Batroc a worse individual than Namor? How many civilians has Batroc killed? How many times has he destroyed New York?

And Sue absolutely wanted to leave her family for Namor, even Fantastic Four fans in this thread recognize that as true.

The bolded is simply false. And you simply repeating your falsehoods isn't going to make them true.

Sue didn't leave her family FOR Namor. She left the man that SHOT their son and put him in a coma. She took her kid, who last time I checked, counts as FAMILY, and went to a friend's house to deal with HER HUSBAND SHOOTING THEIR KID. Seriously, READ the story.

Sue's emotional state was one of its lowest points, I think we FF fans like myself can cut her some slack if she turned to Namor while ignoring whatever ignoble deeds he committed. At any rate, the fact that the false attack on New York staged by Namor and the Inhumans caused a near-sudden 180° change in her mind shows that her commitment wasn't absolute.

What ignoble deeds? THE RAY has yet to list ANY ignoble deeds Namor did before the AvX / Hickman mess. THE RAY seems to think SHOOTING YOUR OWN KID in front of his mother is praiseworthy and should invite some insane "Stand By Your Man" crap.

It's important to remember that Sue only changed her mind when Johnny was injured.

Before that, she was watching Namor pretty much destroying New York and did nothing to stop him, on top of fully intending to leave her family to be with the guy.

Again, simply not true. That is NOT what happened. READ THE STORY!

[Reviresco]

Poor Reed.

If Reed started killing civilians, would Sue overlook his misdeeds the same way she does with Namor?

You're reading neither the previous posts nor the books they're referring to. That would help your post content immensely.

I appreciate your optimism.

Man, it was a simple question. Yes or no.

Whenever Sue decided that a relationship with Namor wouldn't be a bad idea, she also decided to overlook him killing civilians. Period. No way around that.

There's only "no way around that" if you completely ignore what was actually in print at the time of this story.

It isn't a simple yes or no question, because you've couched the question in a framework that is simply untrue and bogus. What civilians had Namor killed when he and the Inhumans enacted their plan to save Reed and Sue's marriage? As far as Sue knew, NONE. As far as most FF readers at the time knew, NONE.

Would she do the same for Reed?

Well, Sue managed to overlook the fact that Reed shot their civilian kid. Though, unlike you, I understand mitigating circumstances.

[Reviresco]

I think any FF fan on here would admit Sue's got a liking for Namor. It hasn't been romantic for a long time, but still she likes and respects him in spite of his acting like a dog in heat at times. It ain't textbook perfect, but it appears to have found a level that the characters engaged in the comic book marriage can live with.

It's no surprise why Sue likes Namor. I tend to think she takes advantage of Namor's friendship / attraction, but he doesn't seem to mind too much.

Reed can complain when his d game is as fire as Namor's.

Exactly.

And as emphasized, as she was written then Sue was not at her most rational.

I suppose the rejoinder would be is Sue rational in staying with Reed?

LOL! I often think not, but I am biased.

[CryNotWolf]

The bolded is simply false. And you simply repeating your falsehoods isn't going to make them true.

Sue didn't leave her family FOR Namor. She left the man that SHOT their son and put him in a coma. She took her kid, who last time I checked, counts as FAMILY, and went to a friend's house to deal with HER HUSBAND SHOOTING THEIR KID. Seriously, READ the story.





What ignoble deeds? THE RAY has yet to list ANY ignoble deeds Namor did before the AvX / Hickman mess. THE RAY seems to think SHOOTING YOUR OWN KID in front of his mother is praiseworthy and should invite some insane "Stand By Your Man" crap.




Again, simply not true. That is NOT what happened. READ THE STORY!

You seem to refuse to acknowledge that Reed only "shot" Franklin because his powers were going haywire and therefore threatening reality as they knew it. And then he worked far more diligently than anyone else to rectify the situation, while Sue, instead of standing by her husband and helping their child, ran off to Namor instead and served Reed divorce papers. She then stood by Namor as he led an attack on the surface world, and to this day IDK if she ever found out that it was a sham.

For someone who seems to forgive Namor for all the many people he's killed, whether on purpose or accident, such severe condemnation of Reed's actions here just reeks of hypocrisy.

[Coin Biter]

The point of the incursions in the New Avengers run was to set up a situation in which, ultimately, heroic solutions were impossble. The only stances that could be taken were:

1. Adamant determination not to employ any extreme measures which kill innocent people, on a "if you believe in fairies, clap your hands and something will turn up" approach (Steve Rogers).

2. Desire to keep all options open, until finally deciding that you were morally incapable of mass extinction, even if it is to avert an inconceivably greater mass extinction (The Illuminati, sans Namor and, people often forget, Strange).

3. Decision to embrace mass extinction as an attempt to avert greater death, despite the realisation that morally, it was impossible to come back from this (Namor and, people often forget, Strange).

Behind it all, of course, is the realisation that actually they were all doomed anyway no matter what they did (spoilers:

or not, as it transpired that the Incursions were merely a symptom of an attempt to avert total destruction

end of spoilers)

I don't think any of the approaches were right or wrong - it was supposed to be an impossible choice.

I do think Steve was treated with a significant amount of mockery throughout, though. He's attacked for his sanctimony and self righteousness in behaving as this was not a difficult decision for the rest of them (with a large degree of truth) at the beginning of the story, and he's hilariously ridiculed by Beast and Hulk in Time Runs Out, not to mention he is treated as bitter and obsessive, pointless fighting a morally inverted Tony as destruction took place around them.

If anyone's character suffered in New Avengers, IMO it's Captain America.

Which is fine - his global "top superhero cop keeping the others inline" characterisation during and since AvX up until Secret Wars was a horrendously misjudged take on the character. Hell, Hydra Cap may have been more evil but he was a lot less irritating.

But Namor? He gets a fantastic speech to the Cabal, and is superbly written throughout, so it's a good story for him.

[Coin Biter]

So far as Batroc Ze Lepair is concerned, practically any Head of State in outside comics is likely to have a lot more blood on his or her hands than a villainous martial artist French stereotype from the Silver Age. (Maybe Garth Ennis could be persuaded to write a Batroc solo ? He seems right up his alley.)

To quote one of Batroc's compatriots: "One cannot reign innocently."

[Dum Dum Dugan]