New Avengers #24 Review (w/spoilers)

[XPac]

You could also call that pride. Other's may go quietly but Namor, the Avenging Son will show the universe that he is made of sterner stuff no matter how many people he has to murder to do it.

Certainly Namor is no stranger to pride. He probably brushes his teeth in the morning with too much pride.

But really pride can be a good or a bad thing, depending on whether or not it helps or hurts you. And in this case I think it's helping him to do what he needs to do. He's not doing something he wants to do... rather it's something he justifiably believes needs to be done. And if pride is what it takes to keep him holding the line, then it's serving him and the rest of the universe well at least in this instance.

[XPac]

Only to a point. If two men shoot at one person and one bullet reaches that person before the other they are still both guilty of murder. When you take a life then you have taken a life.

I don't think anyone can dispute that he's taking lives.

Rather I think the issue is whether or not he should prioritize saving the entire universe over sparing the lives of a single planet which will frankly die either way.

The single earth that he's targeting will die no matter what he does. Nothing Namor can do can prevent that. What he can prevent is the deaths of literally everyone else. That is something in his power to prevent. And that's really the heart of the issue here. Whether or not sparing people who will die anyways is enough of a reason to allow 2 entire universes to die. It's not an easy decision that Namor takes lightly... we're in fact seeing that it's taking a heavy toll on him as we speak. And he'll be the first to argue it's more monstrous than heroic. But the sad truth is that as things stand, it's also necessary.

[Iron Maiden]

You could also call that pride. Other's may go quietly but Namor, the Avenging Son will show the universe that he is made of sterner stuff no matter how many people he has to murder to do it.

I don't know how many times it has to to be said but if no one from either planet does anything, two universes die. And the incursions go on. If Doom's plan works and the incursions stop then it will have been worth it because Namor has bought them the time to do it with his soul. He doesn't relish the task like the others do. But I don't think you can say he is unaffected by it.

[Mr MajestiK]

Don't forget that Reed was part of that plan. There's probably more at work with what T'Challa was up to than what we know, since you can be sure Reed didn't intend to cause the deaths of two universes.

I'm glad you pointed out the fact that Reed and T'Challa were clearly on the ame page regarding the plan to re-acqire the Anti-Matter devices.

Unfortunately, in their overzealousness to paint the former Wakandan monarch as a petulant child, some choose to ignore salient facts in favour of snide commentary couched in seemingly neutral dicourse.

[AcesX1X]

I'm glad you pointed out the fact that Reed and T'Challa were clearly on the ame page regarding the plan to re-acqire the Anti-Matter devices.

Unfortunately, in their overzealousness to paint the former Wakandan monarch as a petulant child, some choose to ignore salient facts in favour of snide commentary couched in seemingly neutral commentary.

just because reed was taking t'challa's calls doesn't mean he was part of the plan. there is no evidence that reed was aware t'challa tried to steal the bombs, nor any reason to believe he would endorse such a devious ploy.

[DeamonSnow]

Nope. His message is quiet clear

He is going to roll over and die when there is still a breath in his body. If there is any chance to stop what is coming he will fight. If it turns out that it was all for nothing he will die knowing he stood by what he believed in and that he never gave up hope.

Okay I get it. I can respect that. He will keep fighting regardless of anything.

I'm still irritated over how Mr Hickman wrote the formation of the Cabal.
T'challa one of the best tactical minds in the MU just leaves planet destroying bombs (unprotected and probably still armed) just lying around.
He knew Namor could pull the trigger so he should have anticipated an attempt to steal the weapons. A well written T'challa would have had protocols protecting against unauthorized use of those weapons. In fact he should have destroyed them when he decided he wouldn't blow up an earth.

[XPac]

just because reed was taking t'challa's calls doesn't mean he was part of the plan. there is no evidence that reed was aware t'challa tried to steal the bombs, nor any reason to believe he would endorse such a devious ploy.

I suppose in theory Reed might endorse an attempted bluff as long as that's all it is... a bluff. Because I doubt either Reed or T'Challa for that matter would actually support using the bombs on their earth. Nor would they want their universe to be destroyed by an incursion if it came to that.

But again, I think the problem is that because it's likely just a bluff it really is pointless. If someone calls their bluff what exactly are they going to do about it? What can they do? They either go through with it and blow up the earth, or they return the bombs with their tails tucked between their legs. It just seems like a no-win situation for them either way.

[XPac]

Okay I get it. I can respect that. He will keep fighting regardless of anything.

I'm still irritated over how Mr Hickman wrote the formation of the Cabal.
T'challa one of the best tactical minds in the MU just leaves planet destroying bombs (unprotected and probably still armed) just lying around.
He knew Namor could pull the trigger so he should have anticipated an attempt to steal the weapons. A well written T'challa would have had protocols protecting against unauthorized use of those weapons. In fact he should have destroyed them when he decided he wouldn't blow up an earth.

I don't necessarily think the idea was that T'Challa just left the bombs lying around. I'm sure there was some degree of security. But the thing is that 2 members of the Cabal, Max and Namor, were a part of the Illuminati so I don't think the security was necessarily designed to keep them out.

I suppose in theory he might have decided to change the security after his falling out with Namor, but remember an incursion occured immediately after the that and he decided to spent his last moments with Storm.

And that aside, either Max or Thanos probably could get past any security measures T'Challa had in place if it came to that.

[Mr MajestiK]

Sure I'm fine with discussing it with you through PM but the fact that the future king of Wakanda went to study in relative foreign territory or that their king has worked with various super groups that happen to be based on U.S. soil doesn't make Wakanda as a nation any less isolated or that the world should feel responsible to save Wakanda whenever they are in need. The foreign policy that you mentioned earlier in your post as of yet has been shown to be an equal alliance with any nation. In fact if you wanted to base said policies just on the recent rulers actions (T'Chaka, T'Challa, and Shuri) you would still see a level of isolation that would warrant the rest of the world not hoping into their affairs. Below is how a lion share of Wakanda and outside nations relationship has been.



Assumption, allegations, disrespect, arrogance and intolerance on both sides. No middle ground what so ever. Most of it being birthed through Wakanda's separation and their "above it" stance.

To move forward.... Namor for example, a character who's ,what you and the BP enthusiast would call, "aid" has been demonstrated since the very first Marvel comic. The character has served on every major Superhero team that mattered in the MU and who also served on the battle filed of WWII. But has never received "aid" from the world outside of direct alliances he has made for his country with another.(Utopia and Latveria) Why is that? During WWII Atlantean technology and other advances were used in his various adventures with Invaders to aid in the wars in WWII. The same can be said throughout his time dealing with other surface world heroes. So why did his country not receive help any of the times it was under attack and more importantly why did he not expect or throw it back in the faces of the other heroes/the world like Wakanda and their former leader has? The reason is a simple one. T'Challa, in many ways, in his characterization has followed in the large foot steps that Namor has laid before. Though Namor has helped the world on numerous occasion in most cases he has not done it as the King of Atlantis but as Independent Agent. Sure both T'Challa and Namors has had their moments of world saving but those cases does not mean that any country is responsible to do anything for their own nations. They live on the world too and therefor if the world is coming to an end it is in their own benefit and to a degree responsibility to help if they are able to do so. You also have to acknowledge that almost every time Namor and T'Challa has severed on a group of heroes it ultimately benefited their nations in some form. You mentioned AvX as a proponent of Wakandan "aid" to the world but in actuality that conflict was solely between the Avengers and the X-Men. T'Challa involved his nation in a conflict between individuals locked in war against each other. Not any individual nation. So honestly what treaties or forgein policy are you expecting to be given unto Wakanda? I must ask you....If the Avengers or the FF were based on the Moon would it be he responsibility of Uath, his wife and his child to save Wakanda whenever a foe came to Wakanda gates? If they placed themselves underground would the Moliods have to get involved? The idea is preposterous, arrogant, and on many levels childish on the part of T'Challa and his people and one that readers/fanbases has used to rally their flag behind for last weeks issue. That's is all it is.

If Wakanda truly wants alliances and help from the rest of the world they need to form real declarations of changing their isolation policy. They do this by not getting involved in pissing contest between men and women in tights but by the mutual sharing of resource. Both military and economic. If they refuse to be apart of that type of exchange then they have no business looking to the world to solve their problem.

My friend, Namor is also known for threatening the "surface world" every so often and excluding the incident in AvX, has flooded a major North American city in the past.

Under those circumstances, I somehow doubt he'd be looking for aid or seeking alliances with anyone other than Dr Doom.

As for Wakanda's stance on sharing resources and technology, it's their prerogative to do whatever they choose to with both and as a few others have pointed out before me, Wakanda have shared some of their advancements with outsiders (Quinjets) as well as traded Wakandan Vibranium with others in the past so I'm really not sure why you're still pushing a meme that hasn't been the norm for quite sometime now?

The panels you posted depict King T'Chaka in discourse with Western politicians and as such reflected a stance that predated T'Challa's ascension to the Wakandan Throne.

T'Challa's rule made Wakanda more accesible to the outside world but that in turn did not mean that he was under any obligation to make said access totally unrestricted.

There's a reaon why borders exist.

Peace.

[DeamonSnow]

I don't necessarily think the idea was that T'Challa just left the bombs lying around. I'm sure there was some degree of security. But the thing is that 2 members of the Cabal, Max and Namor, were a part of the Illuminati so I don't think the security was necessarily designed to keep them out.

I suppose in theory he might have decided to change the security after his falling out with Namor, but remember an incursion occured immediately after the that and he decided to spent his last moments with Storm.

And that aside, either Max or Thanos probably could get past any security measures T'Challa had in place if it came to that.

I think he should have had some system in place to let him know if the prisoners are released or if the bombs have been disturbed. He didn't want anyone to blow up an alt earth again after Namor so a normal T'challa would make damn sure that they couldn't be used. Maybe he was broken mentally and therefore not acting like his usual self but T'challa is an obsessive genius (the Batman of the MU imho) so I expected more from him.

[Mahes]

It certainly is a good point to bring up. T'Challa has been a much different ruler than his predecessors. He opened Wakanda up to a certain extent but no country, be it Atlantis or Latveria, is obligated to give full access to all their resources.

[Mahes]

I think he should have had some system in place to let him know if the prisoners are released or if the bombs have been disturbed. He didn't want anyone to blow up an alt earth again after Namor so a normal T'challa would make damn sure that they couldn't be used. Maybe he was broken mentally and therefore not acting like his usual self but T'challa is an obsessive genius (the Batman of the MU imho) so I expected more from him.

Understandable but given the fallout of the GS world I don't think any of the Illuminati were thinking clearly about the ramifications of telling Namor to go. They, minus Namor of course, had resigned themselves to their fate, so they didn't consider locking things up once the notice of another incursion happened.

[Mr MajestiK]

just because reed was taking t'challa's calls doesn't mean he was part of the plan. there is no evidence that reed was aware t'challa tried to steal the bombs, nor any reason to believe he would endorse such a devious ploy.

Unfortunately, in their overzealousness to paint the former Wakandan monarch as a petulant child, some choose to ignore salient facts in favour of snide commentary couched in seemingly neutral dicourse.

Nuff said.

And just to illustrate things clearly.....



The dialogue between Reed and T'Challa is pretty unambiguous to anyone with an open mind focused on the actual story as opposed to speculation.

[Mr MajestiK]

Understandable but given the fallout of the GS world I don't think any of the Illuminati were thinking clearly about the ramifications of telling Namor to go. They, minus Namor of course, had resigned themselves to their fate, so they didn't consider locking things up once the notice of another incursion happened.

None of which changes the fact that Hickman has been writing T'Challa as being anything but a technical strategic genius level intellect.

Even the most moronic of characters would have anticipated Namor's defection in the face of his expulsion from the Illuminati.

The Necropolis was compromised the minute T'Challa allowed Namor onto Wakandan soil in the first place.

[Mr MajestiK]

It certainly is a good point to bring up. T'Challa has been a much different ruler than his predecessors. He opened Wakanda up to a certain extent but no country, be it Atlantis or Latveria, is obligated to give full access to all their resources.

But for some reason, Wakanda always seems to be in the crosshairs when this particular criticism is broached.