Secret Wars 9 *Spoilers*

[Double 0]

I can see how some people could see it as a dark ending, but I cannot. I feel Hickman failed at making it feel dark, show how bleak it was, and show the emotion and despair of it. It just ended with Tony and Steve fighting and frankly, I'm numb to it. Plus, I knew Marvel wouldn't stick with it so I didn't see it as a dark ending. Just a sort of dark end to a chapter of this long tale.

I totally disagree with that. I think New Avengers showed how they screwed up and things got worse almost excruciatingly. Each major mistake from Tony, Reed, T'Challa, and the rest of the Illuminati, escalated to the point where not even the heralded Avengers World could avoid the weight of it. And when things blew up, it was rough to see how just plain stubborn and vindictive Steve and the other Avengers got. How ugly and overall useless the feud got.

And then the capper that Tony knew the whole time it was going to go down a path like it did added to the tragedy. But I get if it wasn't your cup of tea.

[vitruvian]

No kidding. I wouldn't mind having that retconned out, if that is indeed how it works here.

Well, both Steve and Tony are currently alive, rather than buried under the crashing helicarrier that crushed them to death in TRO, so I think we can draw certain conclusions from that.

[Double 0]

Omnipotence absolutely implies omniscients (or the capability for it).

Here I'll present you a simple example...

Assume right now I am omnipotent but not omniscient. I want to be omniscient. There! I'm now omniscient. Why? Because I'm omnipotent. Anything I will is made manifest and real. Having omnipotence without omniscience makes...no sense at all really.

Another example of the level of power omnipotence is: when the Magus united the Infinity Gauntlet and the limitation on the gems working together was removed by the Living Tribunal, he immediately assimilated all knowledge and existence into his own being. He retroactively made himself the lord and master of all time & space throughout perpetuity. It took him literally no time at all to do this. He simply willed it and it was so. And it wasn't simply so as of then...it effectively ALWAYS WAS like that. That is the power of omnipotence. The scariest part...was that he wasn't even fully in control of the gauntlet since Adam Warlock still maintained control over the Reality gem.

Saying someone is omnipotent without being omniscient is effectively saying the person doesn't wish to be omniscient...which would make them a dumb God indeed.

I think that plays into Doom's unwillingness to let go. Namely his humanity, his flaws. I mean, it was part of the theme the whole time.

[vitruvian]

No kidding. I wouldn't mind having that retconned out, if that is indeed how it works here.

Well, both Steve and Tony are currently alive, rather than buried under the crashing helicarrier that crushed them to death in TRO, so I think we can draw certain conclusions from that.

[DrTraveler]

Omnipotence absolutely implies omniscients (or the capability for it).

Here I'll present you a simple example...

Assume right now I am omnipotent but not omniscient. I want to be omniscient. There! I'm now omniscient. Why? Because I'm omnipotent. Anything I will is made manifest and real. Having omnipotence without omniscience makes...no sense at all really.

Another example of the level of power omnipotence is: when the Magus united the Infinity Gauntlet and the limitation on the gems working together was removed by the Living Tribunal, he immediately assimilated all knowledge and existence into his own being. He retroactively made himself the lord and master of all time & space throughout perpetuity. It took him literally no time at all to do this. He simply willed it and it was so. And it wasn't simply so as of then...it effectively ALWAYS WAS like that. That is the power of omnipotence. The scariest part...was that he wasn't even fully in control of the gauntlet since Adam Warlock still maintained control over the Reality gem.

Saying someone is omnipotent without being omniscient is effectively saying the person doesn't wish to be omniscient...which would make them a dumb God indeed.

Google Omnipotence and Omniscient and you will see this is not nearly as straightforward as you imply here. You could will yourself into knowing everything with Omnipotence, but you still won't be Omniscient as things would change from minute to minute. You'd have to use your Omnipotence to constantly update your knowledge base which, depending on your ability to multitask, might use up your entire ability to use your omnipotent powers.

Doom was omnipotent with the limitations being his own mental abilities. While formidable, it's very likely he has an upper limit to how many things he could successfully multitask. A lot of the shortcomings of Omnipotent Doom make sense given that.

[vitruvian]

Never understood this complaint at all. Omnipotence is absolutely not the same as Omniscient. They are in no way the same. They do not magically imply the other.

Well, omnipotence does imply the ability to make yourself omniscient as well. After all, if you can't do that, then there's something you can't do, and you're technically not omnipotent.

[vitruvian]

Google Omnipotence and Omniscient and you will see this is not nearly as straightforward as you imply here. You could will yourself into knowing everything with Omnipotence, but you still won't be Omniscient as things would change from minute to minute. You'd have to use your Omnipotence to constantly update your knowledge base which, depending on your ability to multitask, might use up your entire ability to use your omnipotent powers.

Doom was omnipotent with the limitations being his own mental abilities. While formidable, it's very likely he has an upper limit to how many things he could successfully multitask. A lot of the shortcomings of Omnipotent Doom make sense given that.

Omnipotence means being able to do anything. No exceptions. Making yourself omniscient from this point forwards, or even retroactively, is therefore possible with omnipotence. Remember, if there's anything you can't do, you're not omnipotent.

[Yagamifire]

Well, omnipotence does imply the ability to make yourself omniscient as well. After all, if you can't do that, then there's something you can't do, and you're technically not omnipotent.

Exactly. People don't seem to understand what the power of God would actually entail.

If there is ANYTHING you cannot do, you are not omnipotent.

The fact alone that Doom and T'Challa had some kind of slug-fest is just outright stupid and shows them both (remember: two guys that are supposed to be about the smartest guys on the planet) as unimaginative morons. I could do far more with omnipotence than either of those buffoons and I'm not one of the 11 smartest people on the planet like they are supposed to be.

[InformationGeek]

I totally disagree with that. I think New Avengers showed how they screwed up and things got worse almost excruciatingly. Each major mistake from Tony, Reed, T'Challa, and the rest of the Illuminati, escalated to the point where not even the heralded Avengers World could avoid the weight of it. And when things blew up, it was rough to see how just plain stubborn and vindictive Steve and the other Avengers got. How ugly and overall useless the feud got.

And then the capper that Tony knew the whole time it was going to go down a path like it did added to the tragedy. But I get if it wasn't your cup of tea.

I think that's the reason right there. I did not see or feel the roughness of it. I hate every character in the comic because they were all acting stupid, idiotic, selfish, and full of themselves. It didn't feel natural, bleak, nor tragic. Just... honestly... frustrating. It felt artificial, like I could Hickman's fingerprints all over it, twisting and manipulating everyone in acting a certain way to fit his own constricted and narrow vision. I see no tragedy in it. Just something artificial that wants to be seen as tragic.

[craybest]

bear in mind that maybe Doom wasn't really actually omnipotent, but it was just an exageration to say he had an unbelieveable level of power.

[Yagamifire]

I think that's the reason right there. I did not see or feel the roughness of it. I hate every character in the comic because they were all acting stupid, idiotic, selfish, and full of themselves. It didn't feel natural, bleak, nor tragic. Just... honestly... frustrating. It felt artificial, like I could Hickman's fingerprints all over it, twisting and manipulating everyone in acting a certain way to fit his own constricted and narrow vision. I see no tragedy in it. Just something artificial that wants to be seen as tragic.

I will concur that the dumb superhero slugfest of entrenched morons and d-bags was...tiring more than anything. It felt like a bad Dungeon Master putting his players in a totally intractable situation specifically and purposefully designed to antagonize everyone against one another then laugh at the outcome rather than, y'know, moving the game forward in a productive and enjoyable manner. It wasn't even interesting in a dismal "fall of Avalon" or twilight of the gods way. I felt like I was watching respected parental figures get into a slap-fight and make fools of themselves...just embarrassing really.

[vitruvian]

Exactly. People don't seem to understand what the power of God would actually entail.

If there is ANYTHING you cannot do, you are not omnipotent.

The fact alone that Doom and T'Challa had some kind of slug-fest is just outright stupid and shows them both (remember: two guys that are supposed to be about the smartest guys on the planet) as unimaginative morons. I could do far more with omnipotence than either of those buffoons and I'm not one of the 11 smartest people on the planet like they are supposed to be.

Neither one was in point of fact omnipotent, of course, since there were plenty of things neither could do and plenty of limitations to what they could do. They each had vast power, but not omnipotence. Doom was channeling vast amounts of power from Owen Reece, which allowed him to do almost anything he could imagine, but not absolutely everything, given he couldn't even wish to instantly know the locations Strange sent the life raft survivors to, let alone make himself permanently omniscient, or recreate the multiverse in an instant. T'Challa had the Infinity Gauntlet, which again makes the wielder massively powerful, but not truly omnipotent, especially with the limitation of only working within its home reality.

But given the power levels involved, it's not fair to snark too much at characters in the story technically misusing the term.

[The Whovian]

Just now need a new FF book of them exploring these newly created universes.

Yep. And at some point, they could return to the MU earth as the FF heroes again.

[Yagamifire]

bear in mind that maybe Doom wasn't really actually omnipotent, but it was just an exageration to say he had an unbelieveable level of power.

I have a couple issues with this...

A) Doc Strange was the one that used the wording...which makes hyperbole REALLY stupid on his part. He deals with levels of power approaching omnipotence...and HAS dealt with literal omnipotence. To throw it around if its wildly imprecise is dumb.

B) The Infinity Gauntlet makes one omnipotent in a given reality (and has no power outside of it) so that only the Living Tribunal as representative of the One Above All who operates outside reality can overrule it. To say that Doom "wasn't really omnipotent" then show him beat (in an idiotic slugfest) a wielder of a powered Infinity Gauntlet is statement & depiction at cross-purposes. To beat an IG wielder would mean Doom would have to have, basically, authorial control over the comic book (which is what the OAA has)...to say, at the same time, he is not omnipotent is therefore a total contradiction. The Infinity Gauntlet is not simply "unbelievably powerful" it is literally godhood in your hand. Not "unbelievable power"...but literal omnipotence within the universe.

[KOSLOX]

Yep. And at some point, they could return to the MU earth as the FF heroes again.

I think it would be a bit weird to have Reed return to Prime Earth, he created or at least helped recreate the omniverse who wants to see him square off against Mole Man after that.