Wishes for a Reboot..

[dietrich]

NOT TRUE!!

Again just look at these here:
http://insidepulse.com/wp-content/up...poilers-4B.jpg

And MILESTONES are EASY:



Look at this picture:
http://insidepulse.com/wp-content/up...poilers-4B.jpg

THIS IS WHAT I WANT!!
You work with Flashbacks like in this picture, you DONT NEED DETAILS, YOU DONT NEED SPECIFIC STORIES ETC. ETC. ETC.


You simply make a book and then let Bruce sit in a chair and think back at his life so far:

-His Parents get shot
-He trains and becomes Batman
-He meets Red Hood who becomes Joker
-He goes to Circus adopts Dick
-Dick gets Nightwing
-Jason gets Robin and dies and comes back
-Killing Joke
-Knightfall
-other Robins showing up

In this way you can leave the details etc. ambigous:
Bruce Wayne becomes Batman is fact, but how you can leave uncertain etc. this are details which dont really matter..
It really DOESNT matter for 99% of the stories if Zeus,Superman,Wonder Woman,a speaking rabbit has trained him...

Tim Drake for example is nearly everyday around him,so you MUST give him a history...

THATS IT....Look at the Superman Picture, did he explain in 1.000.000.000 Pictures everything?? No!!!

And speaking about Joker, I was only talking about the ACE chemistry incident!! and his Time as Red Hood..

AND ANOTHER TIME!! I am REDOING history YES, BUT! only in the way to connect the Events, I am NOT neccessarily deleting characters etc.
Like with JONATHAN SAMUEL KENT and CONNER KENT, I am NOT!! deleting one of them, but reconstructing the Events in such a way, that Jonathan Samuel Kent is born maybe a year after "Reign of Supermen" and so the 2 know each other etc.

So I do in a way that the NEW52,the REBIRTH and the PRE-FLASHPOINT characters can exist in...

Yes some characters and storylines like NEW Krypton and Chris Kent I would delete BECAUSE if they have JONATHAN SAMUEL KENT, then there would be no need for CHRIS KENT...



Not really crucial things...

Crucial is:

-His Parents get shot
-He trains and becomes Batman
-He meets Red Hood who becomes Joker
-He goes to Circus adopts Dick
-Dick gets Nightwing
-Jason gets Robin and dies and comes back
-Killing Joke
-Knightfall
-other Robins showing up

THESE are the MILESTONES and CRUCIAL POINTS....
These are points which brought up characters with who you write your DAILY stories...

Hush for example is a nice story, but not really crucial as it doesnt have effects on TODAY...

You just take this Crucial Points which I listed above AND leave the REST ambigous....

Crucial is subjective. You don't get to decide what is crucial to the Bat mythos the owner of the IP does

New 52 clued us in on exactly what DC views as crucial.

Those event's they didn't alter or out right erase. Those things that they kept despite them being problematic.

Tim's extensive tenure as Robin
Steph's time as Batgirl are not crucial

Whatever DC chose to erase isn't crucial. Those event's that have survived every reboot or time meddling shenanigans. Those are the TRULY crucial events

[Masterff]

Crucial is subjective. You don't get to decide what is crucial to the Bat mythos the owner of the IP does

New 52 clued us in on exactly what DC views as crucial.

Those event's they didn't alter or out right erase. Those things that they kept despite them being problematic.

Tim's extensive tenure as Robin
Steph's time as Batgirl are not crucial

Whatever DC chose to erase isn't crucial. Those event's that have survived every reboot or time meddling shenanigans. Those are the TRULY crucial events

Crucial is OBJECTIVE!! Crucial means that you CANT continue writing Batman without them, if you dont want to take massive changes...

-His Parents get shot
-He trains and becomes Batman
-He meets Red Hood who becomes Joker
-He goes to Circus adopts Dick
-Dick gets Nightwing
-Jason gets Robin and dies and comes back
-Killing Joke
-Knightfall
-other Robins showing up

This are the CRUCIAL Events which you need to keep a certain Status Quo...

Dick for example is CRUCIAL,he is every day around Batman so you need to introduce him, Joker also, Tim is also around, you need his history....

Here look
http://insidepulse.com/wp-content/up...poilers-4B.jpg
PERFECT EXAMPLE...some CRUCIAL POINTS, WITHOUT them Superman wouldnt be the same....


And another time I DIDNT SAY ERASE!!!!

I just say take like in the picture above 5-6 CRUCIAL MOMENTS!!!! which you need that happened to keep the STATUS QUO alive and the others could be left ambigous..

[BohemiaDrinker]

That would be super interesting from a marketing perspective if they were up front about that. Why not release info saying, "Our universe arcs will be 15 years in length. What you will follow for the next 15 years will be the DC Universe cannon for that period of time, and after that 15 year block we'll do it again to allow for a different creative take. Further, when deaths happen in this timeframe, they will matter. There will be no resurrections or convenient plot devices to bring them back. We want stories to matter, period. So what you see will not be a short-lived gimmick, but rather a chapter in this universe arc."

I actually had this idea in a more detailed form in another post. I'll see if I can find it.

(I don't think it's a popular take, though, because the only reaction I got then was an "i love/hate it" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ )

[BohemiaDrinker]

I actually had this idea in a more detailed form in another post. I'll see if I can find it.

(I don't think it's a popular take, though, because the only reaction I got then was an "i love/hate it" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ )

EDIT: And, I found it:

Let characters grow.

Have really tight continuity.

Do a full, total clean-slate, unapologetic reboot every 15 years.

Invent an excuse for the previous continuity to keep existing and allow it's use ("OH MY GOD, THE MULTIVERSE IS ACTUALLY ROTATING AND EVERY 15 YEARS ANOTHER EARTH TAKES THE SPACE OF THE MAIN EARTH!!!!!!!!!!!" or something).

Have as a tradition that Barry Allen dies at year 7.5 of each universe (or whoever the main Flash at the starting point is).

There, everything, for everybody, forever.

From here: https://community.cbr.com/showthread...=1#post4208445

[Vakanai]

I think the fact that it was reverted back pretty much proves my point.

No, not really. Your point was they wouldn't change a character's history if it contradicted a classic. Obviously they would. Whether it sticks or not is up to whatever, but they're apparently willing to write a classic out of continuity.

I'd say it likely was, since we saw sales dip enough that DC apparently felt the need to respond with Rebirth in the first place.

I'd say the sales dip was less about anger over continuity and more over the darker/bleaker/no-fun tone of the New52. Hence the need for Rebirth.

Not necessarily because they track the same events. Reboots, as I define them, are the complete and total wiping away of elements and events.

Then obviously we just disagree over what constitutes a reboot or not.

[Vakanai]

NOT TRUE!!

Again just look at these here:
http://insidepulse.com/wp-content/up...poilers-4B.jpg

And MILESTONES are EASY:



Look at this picture:
http://insidepulse.com/wp-content/up...poilers-4B.jpg

THIS IS WHAT I WANT!!
You work with Flashbacks like in this picture, you DONT NEED DETAILS, YOU DONT NEED SPECIFIC STORIES ETC. ETC. ETC.


You simply make a book and then let Bruce sit in a chair and think back at his life so far:

-His Parents get shot
-He trains and becomes Batman
-He meets Red Hood who becomes Joker
-He goes to Circus adopts Dick
-Dick gets Nightwing
-Jason gets Robin and dies and comes back
-Killing Joke
-Knightfall
-other Robins showing up

In this way you can leave the details etc. ambigous:
Bruce Wayne becomes Batman is fact, but how you can leave uncertain etc. this are details which dont really matter..
It really DOESNT matter for 99% of the stories if Zeus,Superman,Wonder Woman,a speaking rabbit has trained him...

Tim Drake for example is nearly everyday around him,so you MUST give him a history...

THATS IT....Look at the Superman Picture, did he explain in 1.000.000.000 Pictures everything?? No!!!

And speaking about Joker, I was only talking about the ACE chemistry incident!! and his Time as Red Hood..

AND ANOTHER TIME!! I am REDOING history YES, BUT! only in the way to connect the Events, I am NOT neccessarily deleting characters etc.
Like with JONATHAN SAMUEL KENT and CONNER KENT, I am NOT!! deleting one of them, but reconstructing the Events in such a way, that Jonathan Samuel Kent is born maybe a year after "Reign of Supermen" and so the 2 know each other etc.

So I do in a way that the NEW52,the REBIRTH and the PRE-FLASHPOINT characters can exist in...

Yes some characters and storylines like NEW Krypton and Chris Kent I would delete BECAUSE if they have JONATHAN SAMUEL KENT, then there would be no need for CHRIS KENT...

Yeah, again you're just cherrypicking what you think the milestones are, what the important details are. And I'm not going to argue with it. If you don't want to believe that fans differ on what some of the important stories are, that's on you.

[theoneandonly]

so all Robin's past Tim and all Superboys past kon be wiped in this reboot because they are not essential? this would mean Damian and Chris Kent any others will be disposed in the trash can.

[kurenai24]

Note: If post is too long skip to the tldr version.

So I know people are gonna roll their eyes and huff and puff b/c they usually do when talks about diversity are brought up b/c "why does it matter" "I don't think about that stuff" "I don't read for representation I read for character and writing" "we all bleed red" blah blah blah blah, but I'm gonna say it anyway.

People who do care about diversity are already being told to "wait their turn" for some scraps and now would be forced to wait even longer b/c the main priority with a reboot is to lay the foundational work with the oldest and more popular characters who were or are still the pioneers of the company, industry, of the world they're starring in, and we all know what a majority of those characters look like.

If we take a look at the the new 52 which was a reboot or a semi reboot, whatever you want to call it, it had 52 new books and yet only 13 of them had diverse leads, 22 duo/team-ups/team books are the only reason the number of diverse books for the new 52 is even at 35.

And despite multiple opportunities to make diverse characters a part of the history of the DC universe when it comes to all these semi roboots it's never a priority, we still have the smurfette trope or the token trope for certain things even if temporarily that's not the case.

I have thought about reboots and I am open to them but I would never advocate for one b/c well diversity, but most importantally why the hell would I trust the same people behind this company to do it well, they can't even handle or plan semi-reboots well.

And even if the company were to be wiped clean to start from scratch, I don't need fans like Geoff Johns rising in the ranks and gaining power just so they can bring back their favorite characters and focus on them or Didio who seems to purposely derail other characters, I need actual professionals here who can put their own wants on the back-burner.

Tldr (short version of this post): Reboots makes waiting for diversity even longer, even when DC can actually do something about it they don't. I would be open to a reboot, but b/c of diversity, and the people currently running this company I would never advocate for one; even if we were to get a whole new staff running DC, I don't think I could believe that history won't repeat itself with people having a hard time being a fan and being professional.

[kurenai24]

Ok so now that I gave my perspective on some of the posts discussing diversity I can talk about something else entirely.

What is a reboot to you guys? Do reboots have to start by origin story...

What do you feel a reboot should do? Is the purpose of one just to help with continuity.

What should an issue #1 be like, should it contain an origin story or reference it, should it reference something specifically like an event or should it act like nothing happened and fill in the blanks from there...

[Vakanai]

EDIT: And, I found it:



From here: https://community.cbr.com/showthread...=1#post4208445

I like this, except for the Barry dies in every universe part (not saying he can't die every once in a while, but every single time is too damn repetitive. Sometimes he should just retire, or be crippled, or hell sometimes Wally should be the Flash who dies, just don't do the same thing every time!). Yeah, but other than that this is what I really want, hard clean slate reboots, each continuity lasts long enough to tell some great stories and crank out a few classics, but you don't wind up with 80+ year old stories being in continuity and people being swamped by history. Frankly, it's what I want.

It'll never happen of course, but we can dream. We can dream...

[Vakanai]

so all Robin's past Tim and all Superboys past kon be wiped in this reboot because they are not essential? this would mean Damian and Chris Kent any others will be disposed in the trash can.

Only for a while. Some might not come back, some might arrive much earlier than they did in the old continuity, some even before characters that arrived before them last time. New continuity doesn't have to play out the same.

[Vakanai]

Ok so now that I gave my perspective on some of the posts discussing diversity I can talk about something else entirely.

What is a reboot to you guys? Do reboots have to start by origin story...

Reboots to me is change. Anything that changes otherwise established history in the comic's continuity. And it doesn't have to start at the origins obviously, but that would be my preference.

What do you feel a reboot should do? Is the purpose of one just to help with continuity.

I feel that should be the purpose, but let's face it, it sometimes isn't.

[Agent Z]

And once again with these debates, way to miss:

1. Me saying not rebooting at all is the way to go. But if it has to happen, of course starting at ground zero has to happen because otherwise you get an unsatisfying mess. See the New 52 and COIE before it. Hell, the beloved post-Crisis canon with all the legacy was built on corpses like Kara and Barry's and made sweeping (you guessed it) rewrites. This is fairly straightforward, and if people want a reboot, it's how it should be done. There's no middle ground here, or shouldn't be.

2. You sidestepped all the characters I mentioned that wouldn't have to wait around for generations to pass to be introduced because they are already in the same age group as the main heroes. See John Henry in the New 52, who was introduced immediately despite not appearing until the 90s. Just because he showed up post-Nighgtwing before doesn't mean it has to be that way in a new universe. Why do you think anyone is advocating for such a thing? I've seen you mention before that Harley Quinn would have to wait, but obviously she wouldn't if the DCAU (where she originated) is anything to go by. Guess which Robin (and which Batgirl) was interacting with her there?

3. No you are not going to introduce six generations in such a short time frame. You would be stuck with the main one and Dick's as the only sidekicks. If you are streamlining things down and starting a fresh continuity, you have to by necessity. See point 1. If they don't want to risk losing fans, don't do it. Simple as that. But don't pussyfoot around if there is going to be a reboot, because then you have all these characters squeezed into a smaller timeline without their histories, and that is INCREDIBLY unsatisfying middle ground. Like all the Robins in a 5 year timeline. Dick as the only Robin is preferable to that, I don't see how it couldn't be.

And yeah, I'm personally fine with all those legacies being ditched. The main difference between me and DiDio is he's targeting a different generation :P No fan with such biases should be in charge, but even with that of course a rebooted clean slate that is boiling down the main characters to the bare essentials isn't going to bog them down with later additions that aren't totally necessary. Common sense. And if we're rebooting Batman...sorry, a Robin is essential, but all of them? Hardly.

4. Maybe DC can put their money where their mouth is and actually make Hal and John co-leads, or if the franchise is healthy enough give him his own solo. Or do what they are doing now, give Hal the GL book and give John the JL spot. But Hal is the lead the way Clark, Bruce and Diana are.

5. Thoughts on the civilian/supporting characters? Because it's not as if DC needs a reboot as an excuse to make them background fodder. And what does "Batman and Damian's PETS" mean?

Using diverse characters as civilian and supporting characters while most of your heroes are white, straight and/or male is not going to be considered progressive in 2019 and beyond.

And yes that is exactly what will happen if you ditch your legacy characters, many of whom have held their own solo books.

[Jon Clark]

Got to add my vote to the hard total reboot. If they are going to do it, let's just do it right this time.

It's Day One. You establish a basic rule where for x amount of time Superman and the others don't have adventures that would have effects outside there own books.

Superman, Batman, etc are just beginning their careers. No prior stories that have been published have any role- in fact the writers are banned from recycling any of them for the first five years. No "Death in the Family", No Doomsday. No "Flash of Two Worlds" (even if we publish an Earth-Two series). No destruction of Wonder Woman's home, No threats to unite all the Green lantern Corps members ….

While there would be some time gaps it would be more of a gap between books that would slowly vanish. Superman or Batman would be the first hero to appear with the other following within 6 months. The others might appear spread out over say a two year period. The books are all launched in the same month, but the events of Flash #1 are necessarily occurring in the same year as Superman #1. the main titles would synch up as of Justice League #1 published towards the end of the first year of publishing. A few books like Action or Detective may continue to be slightly out of synch telling some Year One stories for Batman or Superman. The end of Year Two might allow for a Teen Titans book assuming we had sidekicks established (or about to be established).

The characters used for any book would be based on the most popular ideas from the 80+ year history. So You might get a Robin with Damian's origin or Dick Grayson's but also incorporating elements from Tim or Jason. We could introduce a Superboy who was cloned from Superman sometime before Superman #1 and is a pretty close match for Conner Kent but never was part of any Reign of the Supermen arc. The main Green Lantern could be John Stewart (with a retired Hal Jprdan having had adventures off Earth). Wally and Barry could have gotten their powers at the same time and Barry could have a shorter career before dying to set up Wally by Flash #25 as the Fastest Man Alive. Nothing that happened before has to happen again. No character is guaranteed to come back at all- and if they do it might be in a new way.

The main idea is to build a DCU over time rather than have it fully developed in issue #1 or even issue #100 of any title.

[Vakanai]

Using diverse characters as civilian and supporting characters while most of your heroes are white, straight and/or male is not going to be considered progressive in 2019 and beyond.

And yes that is exactly what will happen if you ditch your legacy characters, many of whom have held their own solo books.

You know, not every minority character is a legacy right? And even those that are legacies can pop up a lot earlier than they did in prior continuities.