What universe are the new gods from ?

[Johnny Thunders!]

You're talking about different things. It's a bit like saying that because he co-created Captain America, Kirby sees all superheroes as jingoistic patriots.

The New Gods was a method to explore the notion of a new mythology that reflected the forces alive and vital in modern society. The Eternals/Celestials were an outlet to explore the notion of gods-as-aliens, 'god' both in the sense of the creator of man and the mythical gods of the Norse, Greek, etc religion.

I am over generalizing, but I think there are common themes in Kirby's view of cosmic beings. Technology as magic is a strong idea from the New Gods through Thor and the Eternals.

[Deniz Camp]

I am over generalizing, but I think there are common themes in Kirby's view of cosmic beings. Technology as magic is a strong idea from the New Gods through Thor and the Eternals.

I'm saying they're fundamentally different, even diametrically opposed.

One is "technology as magic" the other is "magic as technology". In one, 'technology' was merely the form that magic came from, no different from a hammer or a spear or a lightning bolt. In the other, advanced technology was simply following Arthur C. Clarke's overused maxim.

[Johnny Thunders!]

I'm saying they're fundamentally different, even diametrically opposed.

One is "technology as magic" the other is "magic as technology". In one, 'technology' was merely the form that magic came from, no different from a hammer or a spear or a lightning bolt. In the other, advanced technology was simply following Arthur C. Clarke's overused maxim.

Galactus seems as mystical as Odin, and with the New Gods it seems like a magic attainable through technology. The Eternals as well. Formulas, circuits, power sources. I see the themes as more in common or demonstrating different facets rather than being opposites. Especially in the case of Galactus. I am going to check my book by Evanier, but I think Kirby was much more fluid in melding Sci Fi and allegory. It's not either or but all at the same time. He plays Galactus off of Thor, but the similiarities are there and intentional.

[kid_omega_prime]

ok i like to ask a different question for a min. what dc universes are in canon with the multiverse ? if elesworld story's are not in canon the what universe are ? can someone list the universe that are in canon if maybe possible ?... please

[Jeff Brady]

ok i like to ask a different question for a min. what dc universes are in canon with the multiverse ? if elesworld story's are not in canon the what universe are ? can someone list the universe that are in canon if maybe possible ?... please

What is and isn't canon is subject to the whims of writers, editors, and fans. The current canon is based on the New 52 titles, and various Earths are inconsistent interpretations of older Elseworlds comics and other iterations of the DCU.

[FanboyStranger]

Galactus seems as mystical as Odin, and with the New Gods it seems like a magic attainable through technology. The Eternals as well. Formulas, circuits, power sources. I see the themes as more in common or demonstrating different facets rather than being opposites. Especially in the case of Galactus. I am going to check my book by Evanier, but I think Kirby was much more fluid in melding Sci Fi and allegory. It's not either or but all at the same time. He plays Galactus off of Thor, but the similiarities are there and intentional.

I appreciate what you're saying, but that's more Marvel, isn't it? Kirby at DC never really went farther than this is our new mythology-- the old gods died-- and this is modern life symbolically embodied. I hope Deniz will back me up, but aren't the New Gods the philosophical arguments of the 20th century personified? Isn't Darksied fascism/totalitarism/autocracy? Isn't Orion an embodiment struggle against absolutism? Aren't the Forever People counter-culture because the culture is flawed (and always will be)? Isn't Scott Free finding oneself (or at least striving to)? Maybe I read too much into it, but that's why Kirby's DC work is so inspiring.

[Johnny Thunders!]

I appreciate what you're saying, but that's more Marvel, isn't it? Kirby at DC never really went farther than this is our new mythology-- the old gods died-- and this is modern life symbolically embodied. I hope Deniz will back me up, but aren't the New Gods the philosophical arguments of the 20th century personified? Isn't Darksied fascism/totalitarism/autocracy? Isn't Orion an embodiment struggle against absolutism? Aren't the Forever People counter-culture because the culture is flawed (and always will be)? Isn't Scott Free finding oneself (or at least striving to)? Maybe I read too much into it, but that's why Kirby's DC work is so inspiring.

I would say even with DC. Kirby has Superman, DC's Sci Fi Superhero visit Supertown and wonder if he has a home. I think Kirby is saying that the New Gods are also an Alien race as much as they are eternal concepts. Mr. Miracle goes on and on about using tech to make his escapes. Evanier describes Darkseid as an intergalactic threat. I'm not saying they are absolutely not ideas living and breathing, but they also have a strong embrace of Sci Fi ideas.

[colonyofcells]

Both Superman and new gods as aliens is much simpler.

[FanboyStranger]

I would say even with DC. Kirby has Superman, DC's Sci Fi Superhero visit Supertown and wonder if he has a home. I think Kirby is saying that the New Gods are also an Alien race as much as they are eternal concepts. Mr. Miracle goes on and on about using tech to make his escapes. Evanier describes Darkseid as an intergalactic threat. I'm not saying that are absolutely not ideas living and breathing, but they also have a strong embrace of Sci Fi ideas.

Well, Superman is the one DC character that really fits into the New Gods mythos, isn't he? He's pretty much the embodiment of finding your way in life and supporting your fellow man. And yeah, Kirby's not above saying that technology is part of godhood-- in fact, his work always shows that. That's not incompatable with the Fourth World as a modern mythology and the New Gods as symbolic beings. Mr Miracle is the freedom of youth, always finding a way out of trouble, and part of that is embracing new things. Himon, at least traditonally, was his counterpart, finding freedom in wisdom, but trapped on Apokolips, spreading truth to those who would listen. Sci-Fi is a major part of it, but as Kirby understood, sci-fi was always part of mythic fiction, and it's the philosophy that makes it stick with us. Science has just proved things we always knew deep down.

Since Kirby, only Walt Simonson has really got this. (And Mark Evanier would say he's the guy who got it most wrong.) Morrison sorta did, but felt he needed to throw it into the idea of reality, his major theme, which is kinda why we're quibbling about how the New Gods fit into the DCU/New 52.

[FanboyStranger]

Both Superman and new gods as aliens is much simpler.

But far less rich, in my opinion.

That's why I hate Starlin's New Gods work, despite loving Starlin's work in general.

[Johnny Thunders!]

Genius stuff, Black Racer is all concept.

[FanboyStranger]

Genius stuff, Black Racer is all concept.

This is why we still argue about it! If it was easy, we wouldn't care.

[Billy Batson]

(And Mark Evanier would say he's the guy who got it most wrong.)

Do you remember why he would think that?

[Deniz Camp]

I appreciate what you're saying, but that's more Marvel, isn't it? Kirby at DC never really went farther than this is our new mythology-- the old gods died-- and this is modern life symbolically embodied. I hope Deniz will back me up, but aren't the New Gods the philosophical arguments of the 20th century personified? Isn't Darksied fascism/totalitarism/autocracy? Isn't Orion an embodiment struggle against absolutism? Aren't the Forever People counter-culture because the culture is flawed (and always will be)? Isn't Scott Free finding oneself (or at least striving to)? Maybe I read too much into it, but that's why Kirby's DC work is so inspiring.

Philosophies and phenomena, yes. Orion was the struggle against absolutism, but he was also the PTSD stricken Vietnam vets who came home to a country who hated them, despite using them (notice, in the first issue, Orion is feared and even a bit disliked when he returns to New Genesis by all but Highfather and his fellow warrior, Lightray). Scott Free was 'the yearning to be free' of all bonds, but both he and Orion represented a hegelian dialectical notion of 'aufhebung', of the unification of opposites, of subsuming and growing from what came before. They were the next step in the evolution of the until-then polar thesis-antithesis framework upon which all life in New Genesis/Apokolips was hung.

You can literally go through every New God Kirby created and find that kind of philosophical framework and cultural relevance. That's what makes it so brilliant, and what makes every subsequent addition to the pantheon so poor.

[Deniz Camp]

Do you remember why he would think that?

To be clear, FS is saying that Mark Evanier hated his OWN work on the title. As to why, he was brought in as a last minute replacement for Jim Starlin, who was meant to helm the ongoing (v2 or 3, depending on how you mark "Return..") after the (commercial) success of "Cosmic Odyssey". He says he was always behind the eight ball, and I know that's part of why he says the artst - Willie Blyberg? - had so much input later on, with the creation of Yuga Khan and even getting a co-plotters credit. And, if we're being honest, though he's an important guy with a keen understanding of comics and comics history, on his best day Mark Evanier is no match for Kirby in terms of raw talent, creativity or intellectual faculty. (No shame there; few are)

He completely divests himself of the run. You can see him do so in an interview on the New Gods Library, if I recall correctly.