How much time passed in the pre-New-52 continuity?

[Dataweaver]

As I said, the Urban Legend retcon introduced some complications; Dick’s participation with the Teen Titans is one of them, just as Bruce’s participation with the Justice League was.

Personally, I tend to take the position that you should change as little as possible in a retcon, especially one that’s necessitated by someone else’s retcon. In the case of Tim’s origin, I prefer to keep him as an eyewitness of the Graysons’ deaths, but to supplement that with a right-place-at-the-right-time witnessing of Dick going after the mobsters on his own and Batman stopping him, as shown in Dark Victory. With that supplemental early encounter connecting Dick to Batman in Tim’s mind (and making his belief in Batman be based on first-hand experience), the years-later incident where he saw Batman and Robin on TV could easily be changed to seeing footage of the New Teen Titans in action.

In terms of retcons to watch out for, I’d also draw a sharp line at Infinite Crisis: when New Earth was created, we know that a few changes were definitely made (e.g., Superman’s timeline being revised to the Secret Origins take, and Wonder Woman being a founding member of the JLA); but who knows how many minor changes were made? In particular, it’s entirely possible that Infinite Crisis, Final Crisis, or both de-aged Tim by a year or two. Final Crisis is the more likely culprit in this regard.

[bat39]

It’s worth noting that the Bat-verse got a “quiet reboot” in the late 90s, around the time that an editorial mandate was handed down saying that Batman isn’t a public figure. “Batman: Year Two” and “Batman: Year Three” are part of the pre-Urban Legend continuity; “The Long Haloween” and “Dark Victory” replace them in the post-Urban Legend continuity. Batman: Year One is shared by both.

This replacement introduced some complications; in particular, Tim Drake’s origin was anchored in the pre-Urban Myth continuity of Batman: Year Three, with a young Tim seeing Batman comfort Dick Grayson at Haley’s Circus and an older Tim seeing Batman and Robin on TV. Tim never got a proper origin update before Flashpoint struck; but his backstory arguably had to be a bit different to conform to Dark Victory. For instance, he may not have been at Haley’s Circus when the Graysons died; his interest in Batman could have been sparked in some other manner. The important beats of his backstory are:

1. he figured out Batman and Robin’s secret identities on his own, but kept their secret to himself.
2. after Jason died and Batman started to fall apart, he took action aimed at giving Batman another Robin to keep him grounded.
3. Batman ended up giving him the job.

Within that framework, there’s a fair amount of flexibility to be had.

The 'Urban Legend' thing just doesn't make sense if you consider Year One itself!

I mean, consider the abandoned warehouse scene. The GCPD corner Batman in the warehouse and a whole crowd gathers around, including live TV coverage. The crowds even cheer when Batman throws a SWAT Team member out of the window (Gordon muses that 'they've made a hero out of him'). So its clear that Batman most certainly isn't an 'urban myth' anymore, even a few months into his career.

The New 52 played the 'urban myth' card as well in the beginning. But if you consider 'Zero Year', by the end, Batman takes on the Riddler in full view of Gotham's citizens. He saves the entire city from a post-apocalyptic nightmarish terrorist attack. Logically, it makes little sense for Hal Jordan to not believe he's 'real' by the time of JL # 1.

[Buried Alien]

The "urban legend" retcon was an arbitrary and badly conceived idea that did not serve the Batman mythos well. It could arguably work well for the first year or two of Batman's career, but once Robin and the Justice League come into the picture, it's unsustainable.

I think the idea was attributed to Dennis O'Neill; if so, it wasn't one of his better ideas. It achieved a narrow goal at a very broad cost.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Dataweaver]

Oh, I’m not arguing that it was a good idea; it wasn’t. I’m just pointing out that the retcon happened, and explains the discrepencies between Batman: Year Three and Dark Victory.

[bat39]

The "urban legend" retcon was an arbitrary and badly conceived idea that did not serve the Batman mythos well. It could arguably work well for the first year or two of Batman's career, but once Robin and the Justice League come into the picture, it's unsustainable.

I think the idea was attributed to Dennis O'Neill; if so, it wasn't one of his better ideas. It achieved a narrow goal at a very broad cost.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Batman being an 'urban legend' in the sense that most people haven't seen him in action, there are few if any clear photographs of him, he's never given an official statement to the media, and no one knows anything much about him...that I could totally buy!

But this "no one is sure that Batman even EXISTS" thing is, with all due respect to the writers involved, a stupid idea!

Gotham Central had a nice way around it. The GCPD refused to officially acknowledge the existence of Batman, for legal reasons...but it was pretty much an open secret that he was working with them. But the average person refusing to believe that Batman exists doesn't make sense AT ALL.

Incidentally, on the subject of TLH and DV, its been a while since I read them but I think this is a rough chronology that could work - TLH begins about a year and a half into Batman's career, and goes on for a year. Dark Victory starts off a few months after TLH, and spans I think something close to another year. So the span from Year One to the end of Dark Victory (when Dick formally becomes Robin) is about 3.5 years.

By that logic of course, assuming Dick first became Robin 14 years ago (based on the calculations I made in my earlier post), Bruce became Batman 17-18 years back...which sorta fits in with James Gordon Jr.'s age (though I'd throw in another year to be on the safe side).

The problem with Batman starting out, say, 18 years ago, while Superman only started 12-13 years ago, is that early stories set in Post-COIE/New Earth continuity tend to show Superman and Batman BOTH being in their early careers at the same time. Take for instance MOS # 3...Superman has been around for less than a year, and while we're not told exactly how long has it been since Batman first showed up, he's still very much a 'Year One' Batman - an outlaw vigilante, with no proper Batmobile yet, a very Golden Age-ish costume (Year One hadn't released yet when the story was printed), and no sign of Robin. And I think the same holds for the post-IC account of their first meeting in the Superman/Batman Annual.

So you can't age Batman too much without ageing his contemporaries.

(Once again, the discrepancies in early Post-COIE Superman continuity come to the fore...for instance, when Superman first met Robin in early Post-COIE stories, was it Dick or Jason?)

[sudoku]

I'm definitely not suggesting Batman started his career long before Superman. If Batman's career is that long, then Superman's would be, too. The age of that generation of characters isn't really a problem though, since almost every major silver age character has an in-story explanation for why they would appear younger than their age would suggest: Superman is Kryptonian, Wonder Woman is immortal, Batman was magically healed and de-aged after Knightfall. Green Arrow, Hal Jordan, Barry Allen, Hawkman, and Aquaman were all resurrected in healthy, younger bodies. Ray Palmer was de-aged in Zero Hour. Black Canary was de-aged in a Lazarus pit in BoP 34. Lex Luthor cloned a younger body for himself when he pretended to be his own son for a while. Jimmy Olsen's mind was transferred into a new younger body in the Superman Metropolis series. Iris West Allen, who spent 20+ years raising children in the 30th century should be older than everyone, but her mind was transferred into a 30th century body that, at the very least, was shown to be able to change its appearance to resemble her original body. Then, of course, there's Sins of Youth..

Lois Lane is one of the few characters with no explanation for her continued vitality. Maybe she just has a good exercise regime. Or perhaps some version of this story happened in Post-Crisis continuity.

[GlennSimpson]

I'm definitely not suggesting Batman started his career long before Superman. If Batman's career is that long, then Superman's would be, too. The age of that generation of characters isn't really a problem though, since almost every major silver age character has an in-story explanation for why they would appear younger than their age would suggest: Superman is Kryptonian, Wonder Woman is immortal, Batman was magically healed and de-aged after Knightfall. Green Arrow, Hal Jordan, Barry Allen, Hawkman, and Aquaman were all resurrected in healthy, younger bodies. Ray Palmer was de-aged in Zero Hour. Black Canary was de-aged in a Lazarus pit in BoP 34. Lex Luthor cloned a younger body for himself when he pretended to be his own son for a while. Jimmy Olsen's mind was transferred into a new younger body in the Superman Metropolis series. Iris West Allen, who spent 20+ years raising children in the 30th century should be older than everyone, but her mind was transferred into a 30th century body that, at the very least, was shown to be able to change its appearance to resemble her original body. Then, of course, there's Sins of Youth..

Lois Lane is one of the few characters with no explanation for her continued vitality. Maybe she just has a good exercise regime. Or perhaps some version of this story happened in Post-Crisis continuity.

Or, they could, you know, get rid of all of that ridiculousness and just have the heroes be younger.

[ekrolo2]

Or, they could, you know, get rid of all of that ridiculousness and just have the heroes be younger.

That's what N52 should've done, making it 10 years of heroes existing instead of 5 and just having everyone start out younger then the usually do, no one complains that Batman always start at 21-22 in stuff like JL War, DCAU or Young Justice, this way the big guns can stay young and the continuity is less of a mess.

[GlennSimpson]

That's what N52 should've done, making it 10 years of heroes existing instead of 5 and just having everyone start out younger then the usually do, no one complains that Batman always start at 21-22 in stuff like JL War, DCAU or Young Justice, this way the big guns can stay young and the continuity is less of a mess.

Well, everybody usually starts out in their early 20's anyway. If it was 10 years, then they'd be in their early 30's now, which is too old.

[Buried Alien]

Well, everybody usually starts out in their early 20's anyway. If it was 10 years, then they'd be in their early 30's now, which is too old.

To me, the Silver Age Justice League generation being perpetually in their early thirties works *very* well, but I know DC doesn't want to take that approach because it might fail to excite the adolescent/teen market it hopes will buy into the New 52 DCU.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[ekrolo2]

To me, the Silver Age Justice League generation being perpetually in their early thirties works *very* well, but I know DC doesn't want to take that approach because it might fail to excite the adolescent/teen market it hopes will buy into the New 52 DCU.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Well speaking as a guy who started reading N52 (and comics in general) when it launched at 15 years old, I was and still am far more interested in the exploits of the older heroes as opposed to the teens, although if they were in their late 40s or early 50s then it would be kinda weird for me.

[bat39]

And yet, DC is prepared to have a Batman who is in his mid-40's and a veteran crime-fighter of several decades standing. So maybe the age issue isn't really a deal-breaker after all!

I think the issue is not so much the age of characters per se, but rather, creating what is perceptually a 'young' DC Universe.

There's an interesting TV Tropes article which talks about 'Superhero Prevalence Stages'. It talks about the evolution and expansion a shared superhero universe undergoes, as ever-increasing numbers of characters and concepts are introduced, and continuity becomes ever more complex. The New 52 was an attempt to turn back the clock to an earlier stage of 'superhero prevalence' (using the articles' jargon) and give the impression of a far simpler and easier to understand DCU. Whether this has worked or not is anyone's guess...I'd say that in the last 3 years, the New 52 has become nearly as complex as the Pre-52 universe was.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...evalenceStages

But the DCCU, despite having a 40-something Batman, will still be a 'young DCU', in that superheroes are only just beginning to appear on the scene and continuity won't be all that complex to begin with.

[GlennSimpson]

And yet, DC is prepared to have a Batman who is in his mid-40's and a veteran crime-fighter of several decades standing. So maybe the age issue isn't really a deal-breaker after all!

I think the issue is not so much the age of characters per se, but rather, creating what is perceptually a 'young' DC Universe.

There's an interesting TV Tropes article which talks about 'Superhero Prevalence Stages'. It talks about the evolution and expansion a shared superhero universe undergoes, as ever-increasing numbers of characters and concepts are introduced, and continuity becomes ever more complex. The New 52 was an attempt to turn back the clock to an earlier stage of 'superhero prevalence' (using the articles' jargon) and give the impression of a far simpler and easier to understand DCU. Whether this has worked or not is anyone's guess...I'd say that in the last 3 years, the New 52 has become nearly as complex as the Pre-52 universe was.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...evalenceStages

But the DCCU, despite having a 40-something Batman, will still be a 'young DCU', in that superheroes are only just beginning to appear on the scene and continuity won't be all that complex to begin with.

I would posit that the people who are in charge of the comics and the people who are in charge of the movies are not the same people. Or at the very least, they have different priorities for the two. What works in one might not work in the other.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Well, everybody usually starts out in their early 20's anyway. If it was 10 years, then they'd be in their early 30's now, which is too old.

It really isn't. I'm on my early 30's and I don't feel a day over 21.

Seriously speking, though, it isn't. Beyonce is on her early thirties. The cast of friends were on their early thirties for most of that show (I think). Michael Jordan was at his peak on his early to mid-thirties. Superman is 33 in the Man of Steel movie, and I don't think anyone looks at Iron Man and thinks he is under 30, but he's a hit anyway.

I think that some 20 years ago the expectations of what spot a 30 year old should occupy were different than today's; I sure remember that when I was kid "30" sounded like a magical number where people should spontaneously turn into part of the "establishment", but for whatever reason, I think that ship has sailed.

The view that the heroes should all be 25 might stem from a desire to portray them as rookies (which doesn't work for me, but to each their own) or from an outdated view of the people in charge. Honestly, I don't think it works very well.

To me, the Silver Age Justice League generation being perpetually in their early thirties works *very* well, but I know DC doesn't want to take that approach because it might fail to excite the adolescent/teen market it hopes will buy into the New 52 DCU.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Exactly, but I think this is a misguided view.

[Buried Alien]

I think that some 20 years ago the expectations of what spot a 30 year old should occupy were different than today's; I sure remember that when I was kid "30" sounded like a magical number where people should spontaneously turn into part of the "establishment", but for whatever reason, I think that ship has sailed.

"Never trust anybody over thirty." Remember that one?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)