Kylo Ren

[Tugger]

Am I the only person who thinks that Kylo Ren was a pathetic villain in The Force Awakens?

He wasn't even evil, in the way that Palpatine and Vader were.

For me, he totally detracted from how good characters like Rey & Finn were.

Was killing Han supposed to make him more evil because for me it had totally the opposite effect and made Han's death completely meaningless and pointless.

[Starter Set]

Am I the only person who thinks that Kylo Ren was a pathetic villain in The Force Awakens?

I wouldn't say a pathetic villain but more simply a pathetic character.

I didn't like one single thing about him.

[SuperiorIronman]

Am I the only person who thinks that Kylo Ren was a pathetic villain in The Force Awakens?

He wasn't even evil, in the way that Palpatine and Vader were.

For me, he totally detracted from how good characters like Rey & Finn were.

Was killing Han supposed to make him more evil because for me it had totally the opposite effect and made Han's death completely meaningless and pointless.

Kylo Ren's attempts to emulate Darth Vader keep getting stymied by everyone who is no longer afraid of him, and people who know what Ben Solo is and where he comes from. Ben's transformation into Kylo Ren through the death of Han Solo is meant to show that the potential good that came out of Anakin Skywalker begins and ends at Luke. Kylo Ren was complicit in the murder of the new Jedi order, Kylo Ren ordered an execution on Jakku, Kylo Ren makes it very clear he is a follower of the Darkside of the force, Kylo Ren for sure was looking to hunt down and murder Luke Skywalker (a man who saved the galaxy twice), he had no objection with Starkiller base, and yet people still thought he could be saved. Kylo Ren doesn't want to.

Killing Han Solo isn't an act of ultimate evil, it's meant to show that Ben Solo no longer exists and is replaced with Kylo Ren. It's to show that all the heroes efforts had been in vain and that Kylo Ren does not want to be saved, he wants to be Darth Vader 2.0 and rule the galaxy just as he did. He doesn't need to be as evil as Palptaine or Darth Vader, that's not the point. The point of Kylo Ren is to show that Darth Vader's influence is still felt, and that Kylo Ren is the enforcer of Darth Vader's will even in death.
Han's death wasn't pointless because it shows how much the legacy of Anakin Skywalker is lost (and shows how much an effect Darth Vader had on society) and that you can't save somebody who doesn't want to. Kylo Ren even if not Darth Vader and a Sith lord is still the embodiment of the Dark side despite his parent's best effort.

[Dark Soul # 7]

Lots of people don't like Kylo Ren.

I am not one of them. I like everything about Kylo Ren.

We've had fully fledged villains in basically every other Star Wars movie (Vader, Palpatine, Maul, Dooku, the Fetts, Grevious etc). Kylo Ren is a villain in the making. He wants to be Darth Vader, and that's just so wrong that his entire being seems to struggling against the very idea. He's a broken person on the edge of light and dark, and he's trying to tip himself over to one side. He's a new and different kind of villain, and a solid foil to Rey and Finn. I really look forward to the continuation of his story.

At the same time, he's a badass. Dude stops a blaster bolt in mid air and keeps it there like it's nothing. Then he takes a blast from Chewie's blaster (which has been killing fools all over the movie, sending them flying and stuff) to the gut and largely walks it off. The only reason Finn survives and Rey wins the final fight is because of the damage Kylo Ren's sustained before then.

So yeah, I like Kylo Ren. He's awesome.

[Carabas]

I think he was fantastic.

No, he was not cool. Which is good because in the past we have gotten way too many villains in many fandoms who were cooler than the heroes.

Of course, Vader was pathetic too, once you get past the glamour. Psychotic little nazi that killed everybody that tried to love him. It's just that his character design made him appear cooler than Walt Disney's frozen head.

George Lucas based the Empire on the nazis. He didn't make this clear enough because a not insignificant portion of the fanbase is rooting for the Imperials.
It's like Watchmen where Alan Moore did everything he could to make the Comedian and Rorschach clearly not heroes, and still there are those who love everything those two characters stand for.

It's like Warhammer 40K, where you have loonies who view the Imperium Of Men as unironically as proper and righteous good guys.

The main differences between Kylo and Vader are thus:
Kylo is human. Apears human. Has a human voice. Shows emotions.
Kylo is not a veteran of several wars, and hasn't maxed out all of his skills yet. He's a rookie by comparison.

Like Vader, he's scary competent. Like Vader he isn't a True Believer, but he'd really like to be. Vader only joined Palps because he was lied to, and once he figured that out there wasn't really anywhere else for him to go, and he was too broken to offer more than a token resistance to Palpatine. Like Vader, Kylo is undoubtedly getting redeemed at some point.

[WebLurker]

Am I the only person who thinks that Kylo Ren was a pathetic villain in The Force Awakens?

No, I think he was just a different kind of villain.

He wasn't even evil, in the way that Palpatine and Vader were.

Not sure he needed to be as evil as Vader and Palpatine. As far as him being evil, he was; he did evil things.

For me, he totally detracted from how good characters like Rey & Finn were.

I thought he worked well as a foil to them. First of all, he was (presumably) raised in a decent household yet chose to join the bad guys, while Rey and Finn were raised in environments that should've set them to be like Unkar Plutt or the other stormtroopers, but they were decent people who chose to be good guys. In the case of Rey, Kylo wanted to cut off his family ties while Rey wanted to find her's.

Was killing Han supposed to make him more evil because for me it had totally the opposite effect and made Han's death completely meaningless and pointless.

I would say it did; it was the point that Kylo pretty much rejected any chance of rejecting the dark side (kind of affirming that he would continue as the pesudo-Sith he was trying to be).

While I don't think that Han's death was ever meant to be "heroic" in the traditional sense, it wasn't pointless. Han's story arc in TFA was that he regressing from the person he had been by the end of ROTJ and was trying to become the smuggler he was in ANH. Him walking onto that catwalk, despite the good odds that he would die, was his finally regaining what he had been rejecting, becoming the man he was supposed to be.

[Carabas]

Speaking of properly evil villains...

General Hux makes Palpatine look like a Captain Planet villain. Now here is a True Believer in Evil. And he doesn't need Space Magic.



I saw some interesting clips on youtube, that I'm not going to link to for obvious reasons, that had this scene with Hitler's words, and vice versa.

[Starter Set]

At the same time, he's a badass

He sure looked like quite the badass failing at everything in the movie, trowing tantrums like a 5 year old child and man, let's not forget how much of a badass he was while being owned in a freaking lightsaber duel by an untrained young woman. (let's not mention him being also owned by Rey when he was trying to read her mind, let's be nice)

He is a different villain, no question there, you got that right guys. One you don't even know why anyone would recruit him and give him responsibilities. One who doesn't fit the bill to such a level that you just hope for Phasma to just slap him and take control of the whole damn thing.

And yes, he's human alright. To much maybe one could say as pretty much anyone else in the star wars galaxy would make a more believable villain than this dude.

Should we bring back Jar Jar to replace him?

[SuperiorIronman]

He sure looked like quite the badass failing at everything in the movie, trowing tantrums like a 5 year old child and man, let's not forget how much of a badass he was while being owned in a freaking lightsaber duel by an untrained young woman. (let's not mention him being also owned by Rey when he was trying to read her mind, let's be nice)

He is a different villain, no question there, you got that right guys. One you don't even know why anyone would recruit him and give him responsibilities. One who doesn't fit the bill to such a level that you just hope for Phasma to just slap him and take control of the whole damn thing.

And yes, he's human alright. To much maybe one could say as pretty much anyone else in the star wars galaxy would make a more believable villain than this dude.

Should we bring back Jar Jar to replace him?

Kylo Ren got shot not 10 minutes earlier and had been bleeding out for much of a fight on a planet that was falling apart. Rey was also actively running from him for much of it since she couldn't take him on. Most of that fight is her running away from him until she catches him off guard and they lock. Her winning that battle had less to do with skill and more so with Kylo Ren being shot, bleeding out, on uneven terrain that was falling apart, and being a match for him in the force. That was by no means an even fight.

To be honest the only mission he actually fails though is locating Luke Skywalker. Otherwise him getting the lightsaber is a personal bonus.

[WebLurker]

He sure looked like quite the badass failing at everything in the movie, trowing tantrums like a 5 year old child and man..

Personality quirk?

...let's not forget how much of a badass he was while being owned in a freaking lightsaber duel by an untrained young woman.

Kylo Ren was very badly hurt and not at full strength. So, Rey won literally because of a handicap. Without that all-important factor, it would probably be a repeat of the Takodana encounter. (Also worth noting: Kylo wasn't trying to kill her, Rey was using her knowledge of quarterstaff combat to use the saber initially -- as noted in the junior novelization, she was still loosing until she made the Force connection, and when she did, she was able to see what Kylo was going to do before it happened -- as noted in the story book retelling.)

(let's not mention him being also owned by Rey when he was trying to read her mind, let's be nice)

Even muggles can resist mind tricks and probes if strong-willed enough. As far as Rey being able to reverse the trick, the tie-ins describe it in a couple of different ways; one is that while pushing back against his probe, she unintentionally pushed her way into his mind.

He is a different villain, no question there, you got that right guys. One you don't even know why anyone would recruit him and give him responsibilities. One who doesn't fit the bill to such a level that you just hope for Phasma to just slap him and take control of the whole damn thing.

He was recruited because of his unique background (being a former Jedi student), thus being influenced by both the dark side and the light (per the novelization). It's also worth noting that he's not the top dog under Snoke, Hux seems to be.

And yes, he's human alright. To much maybe one could say as pretty much anyone else in the star wars galaxy would make a more believable villain than this dude.

Should we bring back Jar Jar to replace him?

Huh.

[Baseman]

I do think that having him lose so Early plus him getting out mind tricked did hurt his status as a credible villain.

The problem is we know he's supposed to be the number two villain in this new saga.We shouldn't be seeing him lose until close to the end of the story.

Hopefully he redeems himself as a major villain in the next movie.

[MASTER-OF-SUPRISE]

Some people like him some people don't. Me personally I don't hate him but I do think as Baseman said he needs a buff or some sort of victories. I think the lack of intimidation damages his credibility as a threat and villain.

[Dark Soul # 7]

He sure looked like quite the badass failing at everything in the movie, trowing tantrums like a 5 year old child and man,

Oh no. He has more personality than just evil soticism. It's like he's in emotional turmoil from forcing himself down the dark side at a crucial point in his life.

Ahh, emotional complexity! Who wants that?!

let's not forget how much of a badass he was while being owned in a freaking lightsaber duel by an untrained young woman.

You mean a force sensitive, naturally gifted young woman who showed that she can handle herself in a fight earlier in the movie. No need to sell Rey short just because you don't like Kylo Ren.

And, as everybody's already pointed out. Kylo was injured during that fight. He'd been hit in the gut by Chewie's really powerful blaster and was bleeding from the wound. Despite that he put up a solid fight against Rey and kicked Finn's ass.

(let's not mention him being also owned by Rey when he was trying to read her mind, let's be nice)

I believe I already mentioned that she was naturally gifted and force sensitive. Kylo's training was incomplete and she ended up displaying more willpower. Simple as that.

He is a different villain, no question there, you got that right guys. One you don't even know why anyone would recruit him and give him responsibilities. One who doesn't fit the bill to such a level that you just hope for Phasma to just slap him and take control of the whole damn thing.

You recruit him because he's obviously got tons of raw power and potential. That's the point that you seem to be missing. Kylo Ren isn't at the full peak of his power in the movie.

And you really want to compare him to Phasma? The woman who looked cool but did nothing until she was outplayed and thrown into the dumpster like some common Storm Trooper? Really.

Man, I hope Phasma actually gets to do stuff in The Last Jedi.

And yes, he's human alright. To much maybe one could say as pretty much anyone else in the star wars galaxy would make a more believable villain than this dude.

Should we bring back Jar Jar to replace him?

I see somebody's who's upset that Lucas abandoned the Jar Jar is an evil sith lord plan.

[Enterprise E]

The more I think about it, the more I wonder if Kylo Ren is supposed to be this badass Sith Lord-like guy that Vader was. Considering his temper tantrums and the fact that he lost to what appears to be a beginner who had not taken a single lesson in the Force in her life, granted he was wounded but still, it's looking more to me like he's supposed to show the flaw of going over to the Dark Side. He's showing that while the Dark Side may look cooler and flashier, it's really not any stronger than the Light. If anything, it's weaker, and I wouldn't be surprised if that's the type of villain Kylo Ren turns out to be. Against someone without the Force, poor training in the Force, or someone who won't go all out, he can win far more often than not. But put him up against someone who knows what he/she is doing and he could get into trouble.

[Sacred Knight]

He absolutely was supposed to be as flawed as he appeared on the screen. That's not an accident. They weren't trying to show Vader 2.0 and failed. They were basically trying to create a wannabe Vader and succeeded. At least in the first film. How he'll evolve has yet to be seen. The entire film was him trying to live up to this lofty "expectation" as the scourge of the galaxy and being a pretty poor imitation. He was still a project as an evil dark side user. That's what killing Han did. That completed the process and was his final rite of passage. Episode VII Ren was basically Episode VI Vader, just turned upside down. By Episode VI Vader had lost some of his mystique, the pull of the light gnawing at him due to the influence of his son. This culminated in the final rite of passage of the return of Anakin Skywalker when he saved Luke and killed the Emperor and embraced the light once more In Episode VII Kylo Ren has yet to establish any mystique, and the pull of the light was gnawing at him too. The culmination for him was the complete destruction of Ben Solo when he killed his father, fully embracing the dark. Until that moment, VII was a lot of him trying to convince others and himself of how evil he was.

VIII? That might very well try to give us Vader 2.0 now that the transformation is complete. We'll see how it turns out.