T'Challa: The Black Panther Appreciation 2021

[4sake Baned]

Thats all main characters in Marvel though... that's literally how they are all written because you need that to maintain a story and keep it interesting. This is a sentiment I see a lot but like... BP was a C tier character at best for majority of his existence. Now? He's a household name. Possibly top 15 recognizable Marvel characters in less than 5 years, especially in the west.

With that kinda recognition COMES the Flaws and all of it because that's literally all marvel even puts out.

Don't believe me? See any other character who has enjoyed a spotlight as a MAIN character in a solo, bigger than he has and longer than he has. If they are still being written, at some point they either, did something terrible, found out some dark secret about their past, found out something they believed in was a lie, made a crucial mistake, got killed off and replaced, etc etc etc. You can't escape that for a character like this.

There is not a writer at Marvel who is going to write this character without flaws poor choices, trials and conflict both internal and external ever again. Hes too big now. Because those things are inherent in a fully realized, leading CHARACTER almost every time. So you cannot really go back stuff like to the original when he wiped the F4 anymore. His stories cannot be that simple any more.

Because you cant make a story out of that. Not for long. You can do that when the character is a support role, one of 6 characters on a team so he's only there to do cool stuff. You can do that with an awesome one shot tie in where the story is is open and shut.. but if you're gonna have a character up there with Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, Spidey with long runs and ongoings those flaws and conflicts are inevitable.

And its happened to all of those characters. All of them have that run that is controversial because it "ruined" the character for a time. The X Men too. DC too. Because its either do that or stop writing that character because you can't think of something else to do, or relegate the character to team books and minis. Again, you can get by when your character is a C tier characters who gets runs that don't generally affect the MU as a whole and are self contained but Black Panther is no longer that. There just isn't any going back to that.

Whenever characters get written like that, they live a very short life in the industry as in, eventually writers run out of things for him to beat and move on to other characters and he gets forgotten or you see him pop up as side stories or job to establish threats. This has happened to characters before. Look at Sentry. Look at Scarlet Witch. Even Wolverine for a few years, when they ended up killing him.

To juxtapose that look what happens to Venom in his most recent run. Venom is competent. Venom wins his fights. The run is great but look what they had to do to pull a story out of the character. Retconned in an abusive father story. Retconned in that his cancer was fake. Retcon in that thus guy had a SON the whole time. Failure. Conflict. Drama. All introduced in when it wasn't there before.

The only character I can think of who has a longevity even approaching most superheroes who DOESNT have these types of "conflict" is Goku. The most one note protagonists of all time, whose "character development" is a new hair color. He has no depth. He has no conflict or arc. His storylines are exactly as I described, which is bas guy shows up, uber powerful, beats everyone else until he beats em. This leads directly into the superman problem which is a bad place for any character to be.

BP shouldn't be Goku, I think we all agree on that. Hes the biggest he has ever been and he's a great character but I think great characters aren't determined by the strength of the guy they beat, its the conflicts they overcome and the full sum of successes and mistakes they make that lead them to that point, thats how they are made into characters people will continue to follow.

And this isn't even intended as a defense of Coates but rather the shift in the treatment of his character and the world he is from which i believe is going to continue. I know most everyone here is for TChalla but no writer is going to ignore the goldmine of stories that come from a fictional sci fi nation. This is why WAKANDA has become so dang front and center. Back when TChalla showed up in Earths Mightiest heroes he was given an episode or two of backstory. After that Wakanda is gonezo and hes back to a support.

Even with Redjacks one shot which was awesome, that story told in that issue, don't you think that could be stretched to a series? Maybe a 3 issue mini. Anything else? I doubt it. Because after you finish that the readers just say "now what? What does he do next?" Do you introduce a new threat and have him take that out in 3 issues too? I just don't think there's enough longevity there.

So yea, Black Panther IS a flawed character now. I dont blame Coates for that because that was always going to be the end result of this massive uptick in popularity. Whether or not he did that WELL, well thats another discussion entirely

Haaaaaaaaaahhhhh lol thanks for the laughs

[Toonstrack]

Because of the movie, not the bloody comic.




But, and here's the key point...

THAT'S NOT GOOD WRITING.

There's a difference between "struggles to overcome obstacles & wins" and "continuously fails to win, and has to be helped by supporting cast members".




Moving goalposts. Nobody has said that T'Challa should win all the time without working for it. But for the last two runs, T'Challa has FAILED all the time, no matter what he does. He has to get help from guest stars to defeat his adversary.

ALL THE TIME.



And nobody EVER goes back and says "Hey! Remember that crap run! Let's do more of it!"

Characters thrive DESPITE bad runs, not because of them.



I'll let him answer for himself, but I note that RJ managed to come up with a season's worth of cartoon episodes (and, I'm sure, plans for more) without making T'Challa the sad-sack loser of the Coates run.

Listen, if you like the Coates run, that's fine. But I'm not going to buy this BS that the only way for a character to have longevity is if he has crap runs at times.

That's not how books succeed. That's how they get CANCELED.

Again I wasn't saying any of this in order to declare I like Coates, im talking about seeing users react to the different way wakanda is being depicted and tchalla is, people saying wakanda isn't important and tchalla doesn't need to have flaws introduced and such and such. Its a response to the post I quoted. Im saying that he kinda sorta does if he's to continue getting long term ongoings as a major character, and if if you don't think he does, marvel certainly thinks he does, or at least that's what they do for everyone else.

I dont think retcons or flaws automatically make a run "bad", prr se, its mostly about how its done. For example again the current venom run I've thought has been incredible but I've encountered a few who HATED the retcons introduced so YMMV.

[Toonstrack]

T'Challa was a flawed character before Coates came along lol. The suggestion of anything otherwise speaks to a crucial lack of prior knowledge or a willful rejection of the many stories through the years where T'Challa's flaws result in devastating losses or personal issues. Gillis had T'Challa's long-term thinking lose the faith of the entire nation and get rejected by his god. Wakanda got invaded by an army of white supremacists and nearly lost. Priest had the guy stripped naked and effectively molested by a rogue Dora Milaje partly as a result of keeping his allies in the dark. T'Challa's arrogance and preoccupation with personal honor was one of the primary arcs of Hickman's New Avengers. His underhanded nature caused him several issues during Redjack's Panther's Quest cartoon, the same cartoon where T'Challa gets his ass kicked by Zanda. Even Stan Lee had T'Challa eventually lose his fight with the FF because he didn't even think to account for Wyatt Wingfoot, losing to a regular ol' guy.

T'Challa for the last 2 decades has been a character defined by an extreme, unhealthy amount of paranoia caused by a stolen childhood which results in his tendency to manipulate and lie to even those closest to him. He's one of the most brilliant men on the planet and isn't particularly good at hiding that he thinks he's better than most everyone he encounters. I actually agree with Coates' assessment that T'Challa often feels trapped within his duties to the throne, a concept explored by several writers years before he came on the book.

T'Challa wasn't a paper thin avatar of perfection like when he was initially depicted and there's a very strong argument to be made T'Challa wasn't like that going as far back as the 70s when Killmonger threw his ass over a waterfall (nearly killing him) and T'Challa seriously grappled with a sense of loneliness in a nation he was having trouble identifying with. The Dora were a complicated institution years before Coates came along, Wakandan xenophobia as the bane of their existence was explored in Doomwar and other stories.

Coates showing a T'Challa with flaws and hesitation is not the issue here because that's not new for the character. Anyone thinking that Ridley isn't gonna show T'Challa with flaws and complications is in for a rude awakening but the people who think he's gonna go about it the same way as Coates are probably gonna be just as surprised, because it looks like he's going in the Priest style of showing T'Challa's flaws. Whether "fans" catch that nuance or understand that's always been how the character is written is the question.

There's a difference between writing a flawed but competent character with agency and depicting a weak protagonist carried by his/her supporting cast without a comprehensive understanding of the elements that made the character so popular in the first place. One would assume that there's more to this spectrum than Stan Lee's Goku-esque depiction of T'Challa and whatever nonsense Coates tried to pull.

I actually read like this assessment, I agree with most of it. Its about execution more than anything.

[Toonstrack]

My Dude.... BP was never ever perfect. Ever. He had always been flawed in regards, not trusting his allies fully, using people friends and allies if it will further his plans, this has put him at odds with the avengers plenty of times. And Coates didn't make him a house hold name, that was the MCU. Coates didn't make him a flawed Character, he had his flaws before Coates
Coates literally had him spin on a circle. And tried to retcon his personality. Luckily no one followed on that Because it's not who T'Challa is

I didnt say Coates made him a household name, that wasn't never my argument. I was simply stating that during this run be became one and one of the reasons this run was even started was because of the debut in the MCU giving the character a lot more spotlight.

Your trying to claim that T'Challa being badass has no longevity, yet Priest still has the longest solo of BP. And Hudlin still has the most commercially successful run to date. Both of them showed T'Challa as a badass didn't mean he never failed or took Ls, but he was competent, he drove the story, and we explored Wakanda as well.

Im not trying to say that at all, I'm trying to say there has to be conflict and failure WITH the successes. If you read the paragraph I was responded to it makes a lot more sense in context

And comparing Redjacks one shot to a series doesn't make sense because it was a specific event. And he DID do a whole series about T'Challa and Wakanda. Black Panthers quest

I haven't watched Black Panthers quest but I have no doubt in my mind redjack can do a long form TChalla story, I was referring specifically to the events of the issue and how that sort of story doesn't carry longevity for the franchise or the book.

[Ezyo1000]

I haven't watched Black Panthers quest but I have no doubt in my mind redjack can do a long form TChalla story, I was referring specifically to the events of the issue and how that sort of story doesn't carry longevity for the franchise or the book.

He started becoming more popular Because he starred in the biggest Avengers event of the decade. That's what got him greenlit to have his solo start again, ontop of it being his 50 year anniversary. The MCU made him a household name but Even then he was going to get a solo Because the Avengers event.

In every run LITERALLY every Black Panther run, T'Challa had faced hard conflicts and has experienced failure. Every. Single. Run. The difference between those ones and Coates is that Priest, Hudlin, liss, gilis. They actually let T'Challa get a win on his own. Coates after the last 5 years NEVER LET T'CHALLA GET A WIN ON HIS OWN WITHOUT HELP. Not once.

I don't know what the point of the comment about Redjacks tie in is. No one said that story could be turned into a 12 issue long story. It was designed as a one shot. Had RJ been given the chance to write more he could of done with zero issue while making T'Challa the focus AND giving supporting cast and Wakanda it's shine and shown why you don't frak with them. Hell he did all of that in the issue. But the point is that Coates didn't do anything special. He created flaws within the character that didn't existand don't even got the Character all to teach him a lesson he didn't need, to get him the a place he was already at before Coates got on the book. And literally just **** all over franchise with terrible choices and flaws

[DigiCom]

Again I wasn't saying any of this in order to declare I like Coates, im talking about seeing users react to the different way wakanda is being depicted and tchalla is, people saying wakanda isn't important and tchalla doesn't need to have flaws introduced and such and such. Its a response to the post I quoted. Im saying that he kinda sorta does if he's to continue getting long term ongoings as a major character, and if if you don't think he does, marvel certainly thinks he does, or at least that's what they do for everyone else.

The problem isn't that T'Challa shouldn't have flaws. It's that Coates CREATED flaws, in order to tell the story he wanted to tell. He warped the character to fit the story, instead of creating a story to fit the character. And he kept reinforcing that portrayal:

The reluctant king, who would rather putter around in a lap, and had to ask for help at every single crisis.

And, at the end of the story, how has he grown, how has he changed? He's STILL a reluctant king, now emperor. He STILL had to ask for help, from every character he could find (so long as they had sufficient melanin).

And all for a Wakanda that's supposedly a beacon of hope, despite the fact that he spent years showing it as a hive of corruption, based on a history of colonialism, containing citizens who devolved into imperialism once they became cut off from Earth. People hate his Wakanda, because TNC spent issue after issue showing how bad & weak it was, only to try to course-correct at the last minute with a few panels of people smiling.

Based solely on what he's shown, NOT what he wants us to believe, I wouldn't visit Coates' Wakanda if you PAID me.

[DigiCom]

I haven't watched Black Panthers quest but I have no doubt in my mind redjack can do a long form TChalla story, I was referring specifically to the events of the issue and how that sort of story doesn't carry longevity for the franchise or the book.

But that kind of STORYTELLING can. Hell, there are seeds for further stories IN that one shot. The other doors in the Vault, for example (at least 13 more). Captain Sele. The political aftermath of revealing a WMD designed to go one-on-one with the Phoenix. All without making the title character, his forces, or his nation look bad.

I used to greet new writers with "cautious optimism". But nowadays, it's more like "cynical skepticism". I'm not going to give ANY writer a chance until he's proven to me that he can write a coherent story that shows actual character growth.

Geoffrey Thorne did it with one issue. I'm more than confident that he could tell a story lasting months, or even years, if he so desired.

Coates had 4 years, and STILL hasn't shown it.

Ridley... is on notice.

[butterflykyss]

All hail Emperor T'Challa! The biggest development this character has had in eons! Coates definitely went big for where he was wanting things to end for T'Challa!

[butterflykyss]

I haven't watched Black Panthers quest but I have no doubt in my mind redjack can do a long form TChalla story, I was referring specifically to the events of the issue and how that sort of story doesn't carry longevity for the franchise or the book.

if I'm not mistaken thor was jobbed to make tchalla look badass, which I didn't like. that was one of my biggest complaints about the bp kib issue. yes tchalla should be badass but it shouldn't be by way pis or cis. How was tchalla able to rid all of wakanda of the dome shrouded by the symbiotic cocoon and not alert knull god, while all the other heroes are struggling? The wakandans have a weapon strong enough to defeat phoenix why the heck wasn't it used in avx or more recently in the battle for the mantle? tchalla as technologically advanced as they are i dont see how he could defeat thor a god who battles other gods and comsic beings on the regular. that's why I liked Coates tchalla as he utilized all aspects of her abilities including that of beung a tactician. I've always said a strong leader knows when to get stuff done on their own and when to delegate and I thought Coates balanced this beautifully.

[Cville]

All hail Emperor T'Challa! The biggest development this character has had in eons! Coates definitely went big for where he was wanting things to end for T'Challa!

If by eons you mean Coates' years on the book than yes. Before that he had the King of the Dead up grade.

[Cville]

if I'm not mistaken thor was jobbed to make tchalla look badass, which I didn't like. that was one of my biggest complaints about the bp kib issue. yes tchalla should be badass but it shouldn't be by way pis or cis. How was tchalla able to rid all of wakanda of the dome shrouded by the symbiotic cocoon and not alert knull god, while all the other heroes are struggling? The wakandans have a weapon strong enough to defeat phoenix why the heck wasn't it used in avx or more recently in the battle for the mantle? tchalla as technologically advanced as they are i dont see how he could defeat thor a god who battles other gods and comsic beings on the regular. that's why I liked Coates tchalla as he utilized all aspects of her abilities including that of beung a tactician. I've always said a strong leader knows when to get stuff done on their own and when to delegate and I thought Coates balanced this beautifully.

If your read Priest and Hudlin runs, all your questions would be answered. Lol

[butterflykyss]

If by eons you mean Coates' years on the book than yes. Before that he had the King of the Dead up grade.

king of the dead or emperor over a freaking galaxy of nations.... I think there is way more potential with the latter.

If your read Priest and Hudlin runs, all your questions would be answered. Lol

even hudlin didn't show tchalla defeating death. just saying lol

also those runs don't address the Phoenix weapon. sorry lol

[MichaelC]

What score would Wakanda get on this list? https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores

[butterflykyss]

What score would Wakanda get on this list? https://freedomhouse.org/countries/freedom-world/scores

its hard to say how are these ratings assigned. what makes a 10 versus a 20 for instance for civil liberties.

that said political (council of tribes making decisions) and civil rights (world of wakanda) would be pretty high based upon Coates run.

[Cville]

king of the dead or emperor over a freaking galaxy of nations.... I think there is way more potential with the latter.




even hudlin didn't show tchalla defeating death. just saying lol

Depends on how it's used. Kodak was mostly disappointing and that was from the writer who created it. A new writer getting an upgrade he didn't, I don't see him do in nf much with it.


Nobody defeats death, but I know he deafeated a god and used the power to save the Ultimates.

If the empire angle were to be a center point. I'd want Greg Pak or Charles Soule to write it.