My 0.02 on the Gwen/MJ debate

[Scott Taylor]

By that logic, no one in comic has had a thought in like 10 years or more. Are thought bubbles used at all anymore?

[Ozymandias]

Yes, that's also the one I noticed, but not being an MJ fan, I don't pay much attention. I wanted to verify it.

They certainly seem to be out of fashion, but other techniques are used to replace that tool: talking up loud (alone) and boxed captions, for example. In any case, they were used heavily at the time. Probably all the characters, had their thoughts expressed trough thought bubbles, except maybe the most secondary ones.

[Mister Mets]

Yes, that's also the one I noticed, but not being an MJ fan, I don't pay much attention. I wanted to verify it.

They certainly seem to be out of fashion, but other techniques are used to replace that tool: talking up loud (alone) and boxed captions, for example. In any case, they were used heavily at the time. Probably all the characters, had their thoughts expressed trough thought bubbles, except maybe the most secondary ones.

As an aside, I like that we didn't really see what Mary Jane was thinking. It makes her less predictable.

Though it did make the retcon that she had always known that Peter Parker was Spider-Man possible.

[Scott Taylor]

In fairness to her characterization, MJ was also one to lay her thoughts out in public. Some of Gwen's thoughts at the time were definitely things that MJ would just say right out. Whether that speaks well for either character, you be the judge. People that just blurt out stuff can be a little annoying.

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

In fairness to her characterization, MJ was also one to lay her thoughts out in public. Some of Gwen's thoughts at the time were definitely things that MJ would just say right out. Whether that speaks well for either character, you be the judge. People that just blurt out stuff can be a little annoying.

True. But the thing I feel helped MJ as a character was that she wasn't depicted as being perfect or without flaws. The first story featuring her date with Peter ends with Peter calling her up, and finding out that she really didn't give much thought to the fact that he ditched her. His thoughts were that she seemed that she couldn't care less.

I think this helped to give her more of a dynamic character arc. MJ grew as a character, and it was acknowledged within the books. With Gwen, she went from being someone who laughed at Peter's lack of manliness to someone who wept over the fact that he wouldn't show up for her birthday party, and this change was never commented on. It was as if Gwen was always the character she was later in the series- the soft spoken daddy's girl. With MJ, the story acknowledged her more flirty personality and the fact that she didn't want to get closer to Peter initially. That growth helped to give her character depth and dimension. A good rule of designing characters is not just to give them admirable qualities, but also to give them negative qualities. MJ was depicted as beautiful, but she was never depicted as perfect or as being a flawless person. It's the flaws that made her stand out, and gave her room to grow. And the story acknowledged those flaws, whereas with Gwen they were swept under the rug.

[Ozymandias]

The point is, why didn't Stan use thought bubbles with this character?

1. He didn't care about it. He designed MJ just to be a foil to Gwen.
2. He thought it was better for her character, to be shrouded in mystery.
3. He couldn't come up with text that would be coherent with her, as she had been stablished.

Any other options?

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

The point is, why didn't Stan use thought bubbles with this character?

1. He didn't care about it. He designed MJ just to be a foil to Gwen.
2. He thought it was better for her character, to be shrouded in mystery.
3. He couldn't come up with text that would be coherent with her, as she had been stablished.

Any other options?

Or he was just treating her like every other supporting character who didn't get a though balloon, like Flash, Harry, Liz, Ned Leeds, Robbie Robertson, Aunt May....

[Confuzzled]

True. But the thing I feel helped MJ as a character was that she wasn't depicted as being perfect or without flaws. The first story featuring her date with Peter ends with Peter calling her up, and finding out that she really didn't give much thought to the fact that he ditched her. His thoughts were that she seemed that she couldn't care less.

The funny thing is even if Stan had tried to design her carefree nature as a flaw for MJ, the women's lib movement raging in the 60's transformed those qualities into desirable traits for empowered women to have. As opposed to the "perfect girlfriend" Gwen wallowing over the fact that her boyfriend would not turn up for dates and birthdays. Hence why MJ was considered to be a revolution when it came to the portrayal of women in comics.

[Mister Mets]

In fairness to her characterization, MJ was also one to lay her thoughts out in public. Some of Gwen's thoughts at the time were definitely things that MJ would just say right out. Whether that speaks well for either character, you be the judge. People that just blurt out stuff can be a little annoying.

Later retcons suggested that MJ's actions couldn't be taken at face value, which is an interesting take on the character, even if it wasn't essential to her initial popularity.

[Scott Taylor]

Reading through Marv Wolfman's run at the moment and alot of what MJ says and did makes no sense in light of that retcon. Perhaps not surprisingly, the retcon works ok with Conway's take on MJ during his run.

[Ozymandias]

Are you referring to the "Parallel Lives" retcon?

[Ozymandias]

As an aside, I like that we didn't really see what Mary Jane was thinking. It makes her less predictable.

Though it did make the retcon that she had always known that Peter Parker was Spider-Man possible.

Did it? Did it make it possible?

[VolcanikTiger86]

To be honest i think he all comes down to choice during the intital run of spiderman issues until Conway joined Gwen was pushed as Peters Love Interest, Conway didn't like Gwen but loved MJ, so he killed Gwen and moved the character in so she could get the 50 years development.

[Scott Taylor]

Honestly, MJ is right in that panel. Peter is not cut out to be a hero. Thats part of the cool thing about the entire character concept - he sucks at it but still manages!

By the way - is that from the team up with Red Sonja?

[RobertMacQuarrie1]

Did it? Did it make it possible?

Which fits in with the retcon that she was never completely sure that Peter was Spider-Man.

The only thing that doesn't fit is the last thought balloon, and that can just be explained away by saying that MJ was just telling herself that, trying to convince herself Peter- the person she came to care about- wasn't Spider-Man and wasn't constantly risking his life.