How Much Hate Does The Perez Run Get?

[Agent Z]

While I've seen mostly positive reception from my research, it appears that there exist certain folks who detest the Perez run. If you do can you please explain why. I'm not here to pick a fight just trying to see where people are coming from.

[Dr. Poison]

I think the majority of people appreciated Perez's run but with anything in life, there will always be some that have a different opinion. I liked the majority of what Perez did with Wonder Woman's world with a few significant exceptions:


1.) Having Diana debut in Man's world much later than Superman and Batman therefore being unable to help found the JLA.

2.) Aging Steve Trevor to the point where he could no longer be a romantic interest for Diana. If Perez didn't want to deal with Steve, he could have just not used him rather than mucking things up for Diana's romantic life until the New 52.

3.) Eliminating the Diana Prince ID. I think this is the underlying reason why Perez's Diana came off as stuffy and preachy to some. She really never experienced life as a normal human being without being a celebrity until Infinite Crisis/Alan Heinberg fixed all of this. She was Wonder Woman 24/7 and/or playing princess/ambassador.


Other than that, I thought Perez did a great job of blending the mythological and superhero aspects of Diana's world. He gave us great revamps of Ares, Cheetah, Silver Swan, Circe, and Dr. Psycho plus the art was 2nd to none when it comes to Wonder Woman.

[Mel Dyer]

I think it's what came after the Perez run that did the most damage.

The big development that came with the Perez run was that the heroine was an Amazon princess, who happened to be Wonder Woman, instead of the other way around. Keep in mind that, while Mr. Perez made her a doe-eyed foreign princess, he also gave her a new supporting cast of human beings and ended his run by moving her in with Doc Julia, ..in Man's World. He made a very earnest and timely attempt to grow her beyond that.

He also ripped Circe's soul out of her body and dropped her into a black hole.

Writers, who followed him, ignored the way Mr. Perez ended his run and kept her a princess, who was absolutely miserable being Wonder Woman and the messiah of her race. I got so sick of hearing her whine about what a terrible burden it was to be Wonder Woman.

[Agent Z]

I think the majority of people appreciated Perez's run but with anything in life, there will always be some that have a different opinion. I liked the majority of what Perez did with Wonder Woman's world with a few significant exceptions:


1.) Having Diana debut in Man's world much later than Superman and Batman therefore being unable to help found the JLA.

2.) Aging Steve Trevor to the point where he could no longer be a romantic interest for Diana. If Perez didn't want to deal with Steve, he could have just not used him rather than mucking things up for Diana's romantic life until the New 52.

3.) Eliminating the Diana Prince ID. I think this is the underlying reason why Perez's Diana came off as stuffy and preachy to some. She really never experienced life as a normal human being without being a celebrity until Infinite Crisis/Alan Heinberg fixed all of this. She was Wonder Woman 24/7 and/or playing princess/ambassador.


Other than that, I thought Perez did a great job of blending the mythological and superhero aspects of Diana's world. He gave us great revamps of Ares, Cheetah, Silver Swan, Circe, and Dr. Psycho plus the art was 2nd to none when it comes to Wonder Woman.

1) I can understand this, but I don't really see this as an issue. There are plenty of fan favorites within certain superhero teams who are associated with them despite not being original members (Storm and Wolverine being well known examples). That she was a member at all is not something to scoff at. Plus I felt it suited the outsider thing people were going with.

2) While I don't mind Steve Trevor, I don't think Perez was really under any obligation to push a romance between him and Diana. I would say that it was writers after her that made a mess of her love life (which can't that important to the character) by either creating bland love interests or going the lazy route of forming relationships/romantic tensions with other superheroes. Superhero writers have this weird aversion to the idea of a super powered woman settling down with a human male. One particularly controversial example is the revelation the Jen Walters (She-Hulk's) feeling for husband John Jameson was the result of emotional manipulation by Starfox.

3) This has often confused me. Yes secret IDs are a staple of the superhero genre, but I don't think they fit every hero. From Marvel I can list several characters (Luke Cage, Steve Rogers, FF, every single X-Men) who have got along fine without secret IDs for decades). Celebrities after all do not need such things to function in the real world. Nothing stopped Diana from interacting with ordinary folks when she felt the need to do so. Plus the disguise made her even more of a Superman rip off

[Dr. Poison]

1) I can understand this, but I don't really see this as an issue. There are plenty of fan favorites within certain superhero teams who are associated with them despite not being original members (Storm and Wolverine being well known examples). That she was a member at all is not something to scoff at. Plus I felt it suited the outsider thing people were going with.

2) While I don't mind Steve Trevor, I don't think Perez was really under any obligation to push a romance between him and Diana. I would say that it was writers after her that made a mess of her love life (which can't that important to the character) by either creating bland love interests or going the lazy route of forming relationships/romantic tensions with other superheroes. Superhero writers have this weird aversion to the idea of a super powered woman settling down with a human male. One particularly controversial example is the revelation the Jen Walters (She-Hulk's) feeling for husband John Jameson was the result of emotional manipulation by Starfox.

3) This has often confused me. Yes secret IDs are a staple of the superhero genre, but I don't think they fit every hero. From Marvel I can list several characters (Luke Cage, Steve Rogers, FF, every single X-Men) who have got along fine without secret IDs for decades). Celebrities after all do not need such things to function in the real world. Nothing stopped Diana from interacting with ordinary folks when she felt the need to do so. Plus the disguise made her even more of a Superman rip off

1.) The removal of Wonder Woman as a founder of the JLA was kind of a slap in the face to her credentials and her importance as a leader and a mother figure to all of the female heroes that came after her.

2.) I get that Perez wasn't interested in using Steve but he didn't have to ruin any prospects that future writers of Wonder Woman had with putting she and Steve together. Making Steve an older man was kind of selfish on Perez's part.

3.) I don't have a whole lot of interest in many heroes without secret identities. Their stories typically offer less variety and "real life" moments. I never saw Diana Prince as a Clark Kent rip-off. I'm guessing you feel this way because they both have dark hair and glasses? Those are very common traits, at least here in the United States.

[Vanguard-01]

None.

No hate. At all.

It was a fantastic run, and if DC had insisted that subsequent writers actually PLAY in the sandbox that Perez established, rather than tearing it down and building their own completely different sandboxes, Wonder Woman may very well have been in a much better state that may never have made DC feel the need for a new run.

[SeanT]

The problem with Perez is that he was the anti-Marston, removing everything that made the original unique, turning her into a generic warrior superwoman. It was like he was embarrassed by all that stuff-- the mythology of the bracelets, the Amazon training, the Amazon technology, the theme of self-improvement, the prevalence of love as her guiding principle.

Hippolyta fell in love with Hercules and Diana fell in love with Steve-- those were the pivotal moments in Diana's origin, and Perez did away with that. Diana originally was a grassroots character who helped people on an individual basis-- transforming the character of man-- and turned her in a political figure who ostensibly was trying to change policy to better mankind. The problem with the ambassadorship is that it was so boring both Perez and subsequent writers ignored it. She became boring and earnest, a hero who gave speeches instead of personally transforming people's lives.

He essentially created a problem that subsequent writers had to contend with, making tweaks in Crises events trying to return elements of her earlier self, until they finally wiped it all out and started over with Azzarello.

[Agent Z]

None.

No hate. At all.

It was a fantastic run, and if DC had insisted that subsequent writers actually PLAY in the sandbox that Perez established, rather than tearing it down and building their own completely different sandboxes, Wonder Woman may very well have been in a much better state that may never have made DC feel the need for a new run.

If what I hear is true, one of the reasons Rucka's run was so well received was because it built on the foundation Perez laid down. One poster, americanwonder, called Rucka's WW a grown up version of Perez take.

[Agent Z]

The problem with Perez is that he was the anti-Marston, removing everything that made the original unique, turning her into a generic warrior superwoman. It was like he was embarrassed by all that stuff-- the mythology of the bracelets, the Amazon training, the Amazon technology, the theme of self-improvement, the prevalence of love as her guiding principle.

Hippolyta fell in love with Hercules and Diana fell in love with Steve-- those were the pivotal moments in Diana's origin, and Perez did away with that. Diana originally was a grassroots character who helped people on an individual basis-- transforming the character of man-- and turned her in a political figure who ostensibly was trying to change policy to better mankind. The problem with the ambassadorship is that it was so boring both Perez and subsequent writers ignored it. She became boring and earnest, a hero who gave speeches instead of personally transforming people's lives.

He essentially created a problem that subsequent writers had to contend with, making tweaks in Crises events trying to return elements of her earlier self, until they finally wiped it all out and started over with Azzarello.

Rucka used the Ambassador angle and got a great deal of positive reception for it. In fact his run was nominated for two Eisners, something I haven't heard about any other run. She was still helping people, just on a larger scale than before. Also 'generic, warrior superwoman'? Are you sure you're not thinking about Geoff Johns or Frank Miller

[Vanguard-01]

If what I hear is true, one of the reasons Rucka's run was so well received was because it built on the foundation Perez laid down. One poster, americanwonder, called Rucka's WW a grown up version of Perez take.

And I thoroughly agree with that assessment.

Rucka is probably the only writer who made any effort to build on the foundations Perez set down. Unfortunately, Rucka was plagued by editorial interference, and his run just came too late in the race to really make a difference. By that time, Diana had been through decades of rebuilds and needless changes and people had already lost a lot of interest in her. If Rucka's run had come right after Perez's? Or at least not long after that? Wonder Woman may very well have been in a much better state by now. Who can really tell?

[SeanT]

Rucka used the Ambassador angle and got a great deal of positive reception for it. In fact his run was nominated for two Eisners, something I haven't heard about any other run. She was still helping people, just on a larger scale than before. Also 'generic, warrior superwoman'? Are you sure you're not thinking about Geoff Johns or Frank Miller

Rucka addressed the ambassador run and closed it down. It wasn't a workable model, and he knew it.

Yeah, generic. What was her mission? To save mankind from Ares' influence? And how did she do that exactly? Through fighting super villains. She was a generic superhero with some frippery about being an ambassador and about brining peace but we never saw how she did it.

A superhero with pretensions of a higher mission. It's one of the reasons later writers started showing her as stuck-up and unapproachable.

[Vanguard-01]

Rucka addressed the ambassador run and closed it down. It wasn't a workable model, and he knew it.

Yeah, generic. What was her mission? To save mankind from Ares' influence? And how did she do that exactly? Through fighting super villains. She was a generic superhero with some frippery about being an ambassador and about brining peace but we never saw how she did it.

A superhero with pretensions of a higher mission. It's one of the reasons later writers started showing her as stuck-up and unapproachable.

Exactly why I wish Rucka's run had come immediately after Perez. It would've been a natural evolution. Diana comes to Man's World and tries to be an ambassador with these high-minded ideals and a belief that she serves a higher calling. Then she realizes that it isn't working. She shuts down the Embassy and stops getting all preachy and just concentrates on being a hero and a positive role model in the world.

If DC had followed that game plan? Diana may have really done better over the last continuity.

[Agent Z]

Rucka addressed the ambassador run and closed it down. It wasn't a workable model, and he knew it.

Yeah, generic. What was her mission? To save mankind from Ares' influence? And how did she do that exactly? Through fighting super villains. She was a generic superhero with some frippery about being an ambassador and about brining peace but we never saw how she did it.

A superhero with pretensions of a higher mission. It's one of the reasons later writers started showing her as stuck-up and unapproachable.

I thought this was due to clashing with Infinite Crisis. Also note the way she defeats Ares. She binds him in the lasso and forces him to see the pointlessness of eternal conflict. I don't really agree that its not a workable model. Both the Avater series focus on a character who acts as bridge between the divine and mortal worlds, an 'ambassaor' if you will. For another comparison see the X-Men franchise where the characters teach young mutants to control their powers while fighting villains of all sorts. I think the Ambassador role is Diana at her strongest and at the same time most vulnerable due to the amount of scrutiny she would face. I think this post highlights why I like it so much:

http://bluefall.dreamwidth.org/57695.html?style=light

Diana's enemies aren't just Gods, gorgons, evil spirits etc. They are those whose place within a corrupt status quo would be threatened by the world of equality Diana wants (see X-Men and Avatar again).

I honestly think that writers wrote Diana as cold and unapproachable beacause they couldn't wrap their heads around someone being that genuinely kind hearted. Its not like the teaching thing couldn't go both ways, Diana learnt as much about herself as she did other people under Rucka, Jiminez and Perez

[dshipp17]

The problem with Perez is that he was the anti-Marston, removing everything that made the original unique, turning her into a generic warrior superwoman. It was like he was embarrassed by all that stuff-- the mythology of the bracelets, the Amazon training, the Amazon technology, the theme of self-improvement, the prevalence of love as her guiding principle.

Hippolyta fell in love with Hercules and Diana fell in love with Steve-- those were the pivotal moments in Diana's origin, and Perez did away with that. Diana originally was a grassroots character who helped people on an individual basis-- transforming the character of man-- and turned her in a political figure who ostensibly was trying to change policy to better mankind. The problem with the ambassadorship is that it was so boring both Perez and subsequent writers ignored it. She became boring and earnest, a hero who gave speeches instead of personally transforming people's lives.

He essentially created a problem that subsequent writers had to contend with, making tweaks in Crises events trying to return elements of her earlier self, until they finally wiped it all out and started over with Azzarello.

This, for me too, to an extent. Perez removed the chaining the bracelets together as a weakness; seems that weakness might be coming back, after Justice League 30. Perez also allowed Wonder Woman to win too easily. I disliked her close relationship with Hermes; I would have liked it better if he would have given her a close relationship with say, Hephaestus, as something akin to Azzarello's version, or Dr. Psycho. I particularly didn't like how he revamped Dr. Psycho and Dr. Psycho's lack of presence during his run. I don't see how fans characterize Perez's Wonder Woman as naive; to the contrary, she came across as a rebellious princess who didn't appreciate her fortunes. Perez's run is probably the reason I liked Mesner-Loebs run so much (e.g. Messner-Loebs attempted to introduce the concept of humility into Wonder Woman's world). If Perez made her not win so easily, I'd have liked his run a lot better given some of the characters Perez introduced.

[AmiMizuno]

This is why I dislike her being giving powers. Diana in Marston's could have easily not win. I feel that doing the contest the amazons are not giving their strength. They have no super strength they are all on equal level. She is giving the boost after winning.

Chaining her bracelets can work as a weakness you have to write it in a way that's interesting.