Do writers hate Hank Pym Ant-Man?

[Skullkid]

No writer hates him. I assume they wanted him off the board so that they could match the movies with Scott in the suit.

That doesn't quite make sense, Hank is still a major part of the Ant-Man movies, despite Scott being the protagonist most everything that happens is because of Hank.

Let's step outside of the superhero genre a moment, and consider something: do many domestic abusers (serious ones, not slapstick comedy ones) get the priviledge of a redemption arc or getting away with lame excuses? Pym is already fortunate enough as it is.

Hank's not even a domestic abuser though, he accidentally hit Janet once during a breakdown, a breakdown that at time she was using to manipulate him, so I don't see why that needs to shadow his character as if he was savagely beating her on a daily basis, why that needs to be the thing everyone emphasizes about him over his years of being a hero and putting his life on the line for other people.
Somehow this is treated as worse than creating Ultron for god's sake, it's ridiculous that people will not let man move on, but characters like Magneto get to be forgiven for the numerous atrocities he's committed.

[SuperiorIronman]

Largely it's just to ride that white horse and trying to sound deeper than they actually are. Domestic Abuse is a real world issue and in the real world people will come to find the slap heard around the world at various points in time. So you have multiple people finding this out over the years and many (since it's a real issue) not giving a shit it's been long since dealt with over the decades. There are people born this decade who probably found out about the slap and hate Hank Pym. So we all got to rally behind the obvious of not hitting our spouse and since Hank is a much smaller character than Spider-man, it gets constantly brought up and goes through far less mental gymnastics to justify it.

Ontop of that with Ultron at least these days he's nothing but wasted potential. His stories tend to be on the side that suck and those that don't have more than a few holes in them. Pymtron is utter wasted potential since it does nothing to explore Hank psychologically and especially in light of his current predicament. It's just Ultron pretending to be Hank until he isn't because nobody over at Marvel knows what the word consistency is. Like what is even Pymtron's end game at this point? What is his reason for being? Oh right, it's just Ultron with Hank's face which is a waste considering that the ruse didn't even go on long enough to be convincing and everyone knew it was Ultron or suspected it was him to begin with.

So yes, some writers hate Hank Pym. But beyond those writer have no idea what direction to even take him despite the obvious deep dive into Hank's psyche. You can always get another Ultron you didn't need Hank to die for this.

[Michael Watkins]

That doesn't quite make sense, Hank is still a major part of the Ant-Man movies, despite Scott being the protagonist most everything that happens is because of Hank.



Hank's not even a domestic abuser though, he accidentally hit Janet once during a breakdown.

abuse doesn't always take the form of physical violence. it can be verbal. it can be intimidation tactics. it can be gaslighting.



why are people even bringing this up, now? it's not like the character hasn't had plenty of opportunity to shine (Avengers A.I and Mighty Avengers). i'd like to remind everyone that Janet has still not had a solo book.

[jetengine]

Alot of the writers are lazy and misinterpret a man with Schizophrenia badly self medicating whom struck his wife (whom used his mental illness to marry him) once during a manic moment with a serial wife beater.

Ignore Namor repeatedly commiting war crimes though.

[Michael Watkins]

Alot of the writers are lazy and misinterpret a man with Schizophrenia badly self medicating whom struck his wife (whom used his mental illness to marry him) once during a manic moment with a serial wife beater.

Ignore Namor repeatedly commiting war crimes though.

^she brought it on herself? sure you want to walk into that one? and **** Namor. it's not like only one person can be condemned at once.

[Skullkid]

I'm mostly just hearing excuses to keep dogging on Hank instead of letting him move on as a character.

[Mary Jay]

I honestly don't know if writers "hate" him or not. To me it would be kind of silly and strange that someone would hate a person that doesn't even exist.

Do some writers not know what to do with him? Probably. Some might also be hesitant to use him in fear of being labelled as being okay with domestic violence. We fans sure have been told that on many occasions.

There are things worth mentioning that people seem to forget or just don't know about. Hank and Jan got married in1968, and divorced in 1982. During that time, they were not always in publication but each time they were, they were shown as a loving couple, happy to be together. So the accident with the chemicals that "created" Yellowjacket, and the bout of manic that led to the infamous slap and the divorce are two separate things that happened almost fifteen years apart in publication. They are not related to one another.

Also, there was no mention of self-medication on Hank's part anywhere in the comic books, at anytime. He wasn't experimenting with self-treatment when he got into the accident that created YJ. The only time medication was mention was during Secret Invasion or Civil War (can't fully remember, sorry) where Skrull-Pym was shown with a bottle of anxiety pills, and at another time someone mentioned that "Hank" was on antidepressants. The only time we saw a clear mention of self-monitoring was during Avengers A.I., where Hank had devised a prodromal detection therapy where it would track his mood, behavior and so forth to try to predict when a manic cycle would appear. Nowhere is there any mention of chemical medication. Nowhere. Furthermore, I would add that Hank has never been a drunk (wasn't mentioned in this thread but it pops up from time to time). Through all the years I have read about him, I have never even seen him drunk.

There's also this thought that he's not been used in comics because of the slap, or that he can't be redeemed, it's too late for him, etc... It's easy to look at it from this angle now, with everything already published, but we seem to forget the actual amount of time that passes. First, yes, the slap. In 1982. Then that's true that he wasn't used for some time but he got back to WCA within a few years and was one of the most prominent members of the team. Then he came back to the East Coast Avengers, was involved in pretty much everything up to and including Heroes Reborn, Heroes Return, then Busiek's run that lasted quite some years. He was at the forefront in Civil War (it was a Skrull, but we didn't know that at the time), Secret Invasion, Mighty Avengers, several minis and events, Avengers Academy, Secret Avengers, etc... Heck, he was even part of the team that helped bring Cap back in Captain America Reborn. The truth is he's been present in one way or another all through Marvel History, up to Rage of Ultron. Funnily enough, that's about the time the first Ant-Man movie came out. Coincidence, or shenanigans from Marvel? I honestly don't know.

So the slap is not an excuse from Marvel not to use him because they have used him plenty since then, and frankly no one cared that much. He was a good character that most enjoyed reading about. Only in recent years has this whole conversation started again, not sure why to be honest. I think it might have to do with younger writers who are not well-versed in earlier canon and decided to dig out old, resolved stories to bring drama forward. And yes, the story was resolved, by Busiek. Anyone who has read the "Ultron Unlimited" storyarc will know this to be true.

They "fixed" him at the end of the original breakdown story by making him a more interesting and nuanced character. He doesn't need fixing, he needs to come back to life.

Completely agree with you there

I feel like that is the crux of it. It's become Hank Pym's "defining moment" for so long it's kind of too late to go and do reconstruction of his character. It's likely the reason Scott was chosen to be the Ant Man in the live action adaptation; there's far less baggage to the character. It's like how Mar-Vell at this point is known more for as dying from cancer, so it's way too late to put that genie back in the bottle.

Scott was chosen for the Ant-Man movie because Edgar Wright wanted to make a Scott Lang movie. The first comic book he read as a kid was Marvel Feature #47 and he really liked the character and his storyarc.

That doesn't quite make sense, Hank is still a major part of the Ant-Man movies, despite Scott being the protagonist most everything that happens is because of Hank.

Great to see I'm not the only one thinking this!!

[Ultimate Captain America]

That doesn't quite make sense, Hank is still a major part of the Ant-Man movies, despite Scott being the protagonist most everything that happens is because of Hank.

He's a background character in a film that should have been about him.

Hank's not even a domestic abuser though, he accidentally hit Janet once during a breakdown, a breakdown that at time she was using to manipulate him, so I don't see why that needs to shadow his character as if he was savagely beating her on a daily basis, why that needs to be the thing everyone emphasizes about him over his years of being a hero and putting his life on the line for other people.
Somehow this is treated as worse than creating Ultron for god's sake, it's ridiculous that people will not let man move on, but characters like Magneto get to be forgiven for the numerous atrocities he's committed.

That basically ammounts to "that domestic abuse scene was not really domestic abuse because...". And, again, can you mention other domestic abusers in fiction, beyond the superhero genre, that were benefited by such retcons?

As for Ultron and Magneto, there's a difference. An AI that goes rogue and destroys the world, or a war between regular humans and people with superpowers, is purely science fiction stuff. Domestic abuse exists in the real world, the world were readers live, so of course that it is more heinous, in-universe scale be damned.

While yes, Peter and Reed have hit their wives; the context was different and, unlike Hank, they were not so blank a canvas that ‘mentally disturbed wife-beater’ became their hat.

In those cases the main reason there isn't such a backlash against them is because, unlike Pym's, they had never been domestic abuse cases in the narrative sense. They were just side events of other stories, that only turn out that way if you analyze what you read and then realize "wait a moment, did X just happened?". Peter's story was about who was the clone, and Reed was an example of the "Get a Hold of Yourself, Man!" trope. The Pym case, on the other hand, has been openly treated as a story of domestic abuse from the start.

For an analogous case, nobody (other than fans devoted to details) really thinks that Luke Skywalker commited incest in "Return of the Jedi", because you only know they are siblings in the next film, and they did not had a romance anyway. On the other hand, Emperor Commodus from "Gladiator"does openly try to force his sister to it, and it was deliberate in the narration (in that case, for the purpose of making the audience root against him).

[Holt]

I feel like that is the crux of it. It's become Hank Pym's "defining moment" for so long it's kind of too late to go and do reconstruction of his character. It's likely the reason Scott was chosen to be the Ant Man in the live action adaptation; there's far less baggage to the character. It's like how Mar-Vell at this point is known more for as dying from cancer, so it's way too late to put that genie back in the bottle.

Pretty much. The Peter and Reed incidents are forgotten because those are two very popular characters with decades worth of stories and memorable moments, while Hank hitting Jan and creating Ultron are probably the two most notable things he's ever done. Even if you've never read a comic with Pym, there's a good chance you're aware he hit his wife if you travel in geek circles because it gets brought up a lot.

[Mary Jay]

Pretty much. The Peter and Reed incidents are forgotten because those are two very popular characters with decades worth of stories and memorable moments, while Hank hitting Jan and creating Ultron are probably the two most notable things he's ever done. Even if you've never read a comic with Pym, there's a good chance you're aware he hit his wife if you travel in geek circles because it gets brought up a lot.

I think that's part of the problem, to be honest. People heard about it, but they never actually read the stories. If they did, they would realize it's not all black-and-white.

It was a very bad act done by a good person who was ill at the time. It doesn't excuse it, because it's still wrong. But it shouldn't villify the person forever. Hank has always said that this was the worst thing he has ever done, and he will never forgive himself for it.

[kcekada]

I've always found Hank to be the most interesting of his entire family -- Ant-Man II, III, Yellowjacket II, Wasp I and II. Okay, I probably like Jan equally well as Hank. And his extended absence from the Avengers and Marvel Comics is regrettable. I wish Shooter had never written that issue -- because Claremont had recently upgraded the character in MTU -- only to have him torn down again by Shooter (Shooter also crapped all over Tigra and Moondragon -- which really turned me off his second run).

I'd love to see Hank and Jan back as Yellowjacket and Wasp in a series -- not necessarily as a married couple, but just as equal partners. I like Scott Lang well enough, but don't find him that interesting as a lead character.

[king of hybrids]

In fairness to the writers it also strains credulity that in a literal legion of people who have domestic abuse (either to them or, usually, their mothers) as part of their upbringing, that Tony is the only one who can’t stomach him.

[mugiwara]

I'm tired of seing the whole "Reed slaped Sue" brought here every time.
It had nothing in common with Hank slaping Janet or Peter punching MJ.

Sue was full "Malice" at this time. She was trying to murder him (and Johnny) and he slaped her to make her so upset she would free herself from the Malice personnality.
This was no different than any character knocking out their friend or lover when they are on a rampage because mind control or whatever. Considering the threat, it was a even a rather peaceful way to stop the fight.

Also true that the other characters are allowed to go away with what they've done. Rogue ruined Carol Danvers' life in her very first appearance. Like Pym, she suffered from the consequences and had to atone. But now, nobody, even Carol, brings that against her. She's "Rogue the X-Woman", "Rogue the super heroin", not "Rogue the mind rapist".
The only other character who can't get away from the bad deeds from their past (mostly because too many writers don't know what else to do with her) is Black Widow. But even in her case, you never see Tony or Clint blame her the same way they still blame Pym.

[Michael Watkins]

In fairness to the writers it also strains credulity that in a literal legion of people who have domestic abuse (either to them or, usually, their mothers) as part of their upbringing, that Tony is the only one who can’t stomach him.

yes it was quite unrealistic that Clint Barton, who had an abusive father and an impulsive streak, would have no issue with Pym beating up Janet. and that eventually led to Clint and Jan hooking up.

[Skullkid]

He's a background character in a film that should have been about him.

In what world do you live in where Hank Pym counts as a background check character in these movies?
The movies are basically about him.

That basically ammounts to "that domestic abuse scene was not really domestic abuse because...". And, again, can you mention other domestic abusers in fiction, beyond the superhero genre, that were benefited by such retcons?

These aren't retcons, Hank having a break down, Jan using it to manipulate him and the hit being an accident were all apart of those stories as they were written then, anything that makes the situation and Hank look worse is a retcon.

As for Ultron and Magneto, there's a difference. An AI that goes rogue and destroys the world, or a war between regular humans and people with superpowers, is purely science fiction stuff. Domestic abuse exists in the real world, the world were readers live, so of course that it is more heinous, in-universe scale be damned.

Hank Pym is not a real orrson, he's a guy who shrinks himself and rides on ants, and even in the real world people who made the same mistake as Hank can make up for their actions and move on with their lives.