Jean Grey: Marvel Girl, Phoenix Appreciation 2018

[phoenixzero23]

Phoenix seems like Oprah "you have the phoenix! you have the phoenix too! everyone has the phoenix!!!
Instead of unique connection with Jean, Phoenix seems too much flexible

I feel like with other people the phoenix is just a power up, that could be replaced with any other. When it's Jean is different, is part of her character and story. it means something (usually bad).

Besides other avatars are just tools, according to Phoenix resurrection the Phoenix seems to be in love with Jean.

[Disciple of Redd]

Understood, and while I'd never want anyone's favorite to be "dead" or sidelined I honestly feel Cyke could use the break. I know that's blasphemous especially for his fans but he like Logan and especially Logan had been written into counters. And while I believe there is still lots more life in both characters, Scott has had years of consistent storytelling revolved around his thoughts, actions, and motivations. He's been written as far as he could at that point the actual story notwithstanding. All in all I think a few more years down the road is when he should return with a clear and concise new direction, whatever that looks like.





Agreed, especially when it's not even long term story telling or even the slightest acknowledgement of what the PF actually is. Everyone just thinks of it as their personal Macguffin to power up whatever character they enjoy and tell their lackluster version of the most basic premise of the DPS. That and I honestly believe most if not every writer after Morrison, have never actually read the DPS, or know the most basic details about what the Phoenix is.


Aaron, specifically is only interested in tying as many unrelated characters he can to the PF, I just wonder does no one ever have an idea that's consistent with what the PF is, was, or has done? Looking at stories like Warsong, or AvX, I'm left thinking of all the characters that have real relations to the Force they're really going for the possession then corruption storyline, AGAIN? My favorite most recent host was an alternate reality Vision...

I ultimately, I really don't think anyone besides Jean should have/be the Phoenix, but I REALLY don't like ut when the Phoenix is made about some dude.

Like...you really stripped this amazing American Magical Girl of her majesty to tell yet another story about Average Guy?

And that includes Vision, imo. Phoenix being about any dude is almost as bad as it not being about Jean herself.

That's like..."let's end Wonder Woman and give Steve Trevor her powers instead."

[U.N. Owen]

Phoenix seems like Oprah "you have the phoenix! you have the phoenix too! everyone has the phoenix!!!
Instead of unique connection with Jean, Phoenix seems too much flexible

This makes me want to see a storyline where Big Cosmic Threat of the Event comes to Earth and the Phoenix Force is given to everyone on the planet in order to fight it off. This will include Phoenix fish, Phoenix kids, Phoenix bacteria, and Phoenix fungus.

[PsychoEFrost]

Phoenix seems like Oprah "you have the phoenix! you have the phoenix too! everyone has the phoenix!!!
Instead of unique connection with Jean, Phoenix seems too much flexible

I know you guys are still upset about the retcon about the Phoenix being Jean's true form, but as long as the writer respects the phoenix and her origins, it's not that bad.

Warsong/Endsong wasn't bad because it was respectful of the canon, and Jean's connection. P5 was a lot worse. Mega Super Ultra Instinct Wolverine is extremely poor choice.

[PsychoEFrost]

I feel like with other people the phoenix is just a power up, that could be replaced with any other. When it's Jean is different, is part of her character and story. it means something (usually bad).

Besides other avatars are just tools, according to Phoenix resurrection the Phoenix seems to be in love with Jean.

According to the lore, Feron was her first love, and stayed with him until his kids ruined it. Then she loved Jean. Jean being her favorite of the modern era was never in doubt throughout the canon.

[phoenixzero23]

Mega Super Ultra Instinct Wolverine is extremely poor choice.

What did i miss????

[Celestialbodies]

Yeah, I'm torn between "Bring Scott back!" and "His last arc was perfect don't ruin RightClops and make him apologize for everything!" which I just KNOW they're going to try and do.

He truly did have a complete story arc.

Phoenix seems like Oprah "you have the phoenix! you have the phoenix too! everyone has the phoenix!!!
Instead of unique connection with Jean, Phoenix seems too much flexible

Exactly!

I feel like with other people the phoenix is just a power up, that could be replaced with any other. When it's Jean is different, is part of her character and story. it means something (usually bad).

Besides other avatars are just tools, according to Phoenix resurrection the Phoenix seems to be in love with Jean.

Each time the PF is attached to another person it only lessens it's overall value, especially from writer to the next it's purpose and power level is completely changed. For instance can anyone tell me the purpose of Thane causally hosting the PF, Thanos kicking his butt with said Force, or those witches easily removing the Force from a host like it was a minor nuisance?

I ultimately, I really don't think anyone besides Jean should have/be the Phoenix, but I REALLY don't like ut when the Phoenix is made about some dude.

Like...you really stripped this amazing American Magical Girl of her majesty to tell yet another story about Average Guy?

And that includes Vision, imo. Phoenix being about any dude is almost as bad as it not being about Jean herself.

Ugh, it bothered me to no end that Cyke was the Phoenix both in AvX and again during Secret Wars, neither instance made a lick of sense even from a storytelling perspective. Like whose idea was it to make Cyclops the Phoenix?

This makes me want to see a storyline where Big Cosmic Threat of the Event comes to Earth and the Phoenix Force is given to everyone on the planet in order to fight it off. This will include Phoenix fish, Phoenix kids, Phoenix bacteria, and Phoenix fungus.

Which is so ironic given that rarely if ever is the PF used or encounters other major cosmic threats, it could also easily be used as a cosmic character yet. Its consistently tied exclusively to Earth and Earth related issues.

[MechaJeanix]

Turning the Phoenix into some kind of cosmic std was so dumb, but yet here we are. I think I will always love Morrison's version of the Phoenix even though in some ways he didn't help with the many hosts (but I feel he was working with what was already done to the Phoenix but he still kept the story very Jean centric and kept the Phoenix intimately close with her and gave her a destiny within the Phoenix force).

Rosenberg's version has the Phoenix being manipulative and deceitful which is contradictory to something that burns through lies and self deception. I would loved to have seen Jean truly tame/defeat the Phoenix and show why she is the prime host and show that she can handle it. In Morrison's run Jean was confident when Scott started to worry. At the same time they did so many bad things with the Phoenix and to Jean's family (Scott, Xavier, the Greys) that I could see Jean rejecting it and trying to move on with her life and resenting the cycle of death and rebirth. It makes sense story wise, but why did they have to go this route with the Phoenix.

Jason Aaron wrote Jean as White Phoenix in a Wolverine issue where he described the Phoenix as the symbol of Jean Grey. Then flashforward a few years to AvX and now Old Man Logan Phoenix and Thor hammer Phoenix. WTF happened.

[PsychoEFrost]

What did i miss????

In the Future Thor adventures Jason Aaron is writing, Wolverine in the future is a Phoenix host, in addition to all his other attributes, and implied to be a Celestial now as well.

[phoenixzero23]

In the Future Thor adventures Jason Aaron is writing, Wolverine in the future is a Phoenix host, in addition to all his other attributes, and implied to be a Celestial now as well.

Crazy, Thanks!

[Gambit, King of Thieves]

Like whose idea was it to make Cyclops the Phoenix?

Well, based on what I remember of AvX, Tony Stark.

[PsychoEFrost]

Turning the Phoenix into some kind of cosmic std was so dumb, but yet here we are. I think I will always love Morrison's version of the Phoenix even though in some ways he didn't help with the many hosts (but I feel he was working with what was already done to the Phoenix but he still kept the story very Jean centric and kept the Phoenix intimately close with her and gave her a destiny within the Phoenix force).

Rosenberg's version has the Phoenix being manipulative and deceitful which is contradictory to something that burns through lies and self deception. I would loved to have seen Jean truly tame/defeat the Phoenix and show why she is the prime host and show that she can handle it. In Morrison's run Jean was confident when Scott started to worry. At the same time they did so many bad things with the Phoenix and to Jean's family (Scott, Xavier, the Greys) that I could see Jean rejecting it and trying to move on with her life and resenting the cycle of death and rebirth. It makes sense story wise, but why did they have to go this route with the Phoenix.

Jason Aaron wrote Jean as White Phoenix in a Wolverine issue where he described the Phoenix as the symbol of Jean Grey. Then flashforward a few years to AvX and now Old Man Logan Phoenix and Thor hammer Phoenix. WTF happened.

Aaron has some kind of obsession with the Phoenix. Not sure what it is.

[Gambit, King of Thieves]

Jason Aaron wrote Jean as White Phoenix in a Wolverine issue where he described the Phoenix as the symbol of Jean Grey. Then flashforward a few years to AvX and now Old Man Logan Phoenix and Thor hammer Phoenix. WTF happened.

Bad news, guys. Looks like Jogan wins out in the end.

[Disciple of Redd]

it was a minor nuisance?

Ugh, it bothered me to no end that Cyke was the Phoenix both in AvX and again during Secret Wars, neither instance made a lick of sense even from a storytelling perspective. Like whose idea was it to make Cyclops the Phoenix?

Someone who wanted to give his pet character all the powerz and couldn't control himself lol

[Celestialbodies]

I know you guys are still upset about the retcon about the Phoenix being Jean's true form, but as long as the writer respects the phoenix and her origins, it's not that bad.

Warsong/Endsong wasn't bad because it was respectful of the canon, and Jean's connection. P5 was a lot worse. Mega Super Ultra Instinct Wolverine is extremely poor choice.

Endsong was tolerable for the time, yet looking back Jean was missing or confused for most of it as the PF is passed between her and Emma. But mostly, speaking strictly as a fan of Jean it did her no favors she was resurrected after HCT only to be used as a background character and to re-officially confirm Scott/Emma.

What's worse is initially Pak or Marvel depending on who you believe envisioned that as the LAST, Jean Grey story. Warsong however should not of happen or most certainly shouldn't have involved the PF, it came back to Earth looking specifically for Jean per Endsong, then in the next miniseries it's returned again to possess the Stepford Cuckoos in order to complete...Phoenix work. Ultimately both were cash grabs that shouldn't have existed simply because neither did anything to further or develop Jean's journey, only a means to kill her then use aspects of her mythos with others which actually started the trend.