Is Moon Girl really smarter than Victor Von Doom and Reed Richards?

[Crimz]

You didn't think Dr. Cecilia Reyes was up there? She's no Sinister level genius of course...not too many earth characters are but she's had her moments.

And if Moon Girl is ahead of Tony, Reed, and Doom, where does Riri rank now??

That's the thing, she may be a genius but the list is primarily of super geniuses which severely lacks women. The first one I can think of who broke the male dominated top 10 was Valeria, a child, then later Moon Girl and possibly Riri. None of them are adults and I would've liked if Marvel elevated some adult women geniuses like Cecelia too.

[Iron Maiden]

Alyssa Moy was a fellow student and nearly equal to Reed's in college. She was also Reed's gf before Susan. She and her husband Ted Castle put together the Nu Earth project. But I think she was killed then later her brain was saved and placed in a robotic form. Nu Earth was rapidly decaying the last I recall reading about it in Hickman's Fantastic Four so who knows where she is now.

[Mary Jay]

Mostly because, for the majority of its history, Marvel simply did not have lady adventurer-scientists. They seemed downright hostile to the very idea that a woman could be both a scientific genius and a superhero. They always had to be one or the other, never both. Reed, Tony, Bruce, two Hanks, Peter, and plenty of other guys could be both smart and strong. But no women.

Which was misogynistic bullshit. It really was. Marvel's total lack of any female character who could occupy the same sorts of roles as those guys was misogynistic bullshit and it needed to end.

So hell yeah Marvel's creating female characters who are smarter than the guys who were always held up as the smartest. It's a correction of a massive imbalance that goes right back to the start of Marvel comics.

Give it a few years, when the female genius-heroes are more firmly established, and there's likely to be less of the direct comparisons and competitions going on right now. Once women are consistently used as consultants that other heroes call on when they need scientific help.

Hostile? Don't you think you're exaggerating a bit here? Have you been to Marvel meetings from 20 years ago? Did you read/hear of Marvel writers or editors or whatever violently rejecting any idea of a female super-scientist? I sure haven't. Have you been made aware of Marvel actively say, in all of their years of existence, "No, we do NOT want any female scientist superhero"? They haven't refused to do it. They just haven't done it.

And no, I don't see it as a "correction of an imbalance". I see it as a shift in the opposite direction, causing another imbalance the other way. How is that any better? From my perspective (which, of course, is subjective - to each their own), Marvel has systematically killed/sent away/incapacitated all the prominent male geniuses to replace them with smart girls. How is that fair? How is that EQUAL?

If down the line it ends up being women who are constantly called (your words) to solve scientific problems, how is that an improvement? How is that equality? How is that fair? This would just be shifting the balance the other way around. That is not any better than what you're denouncing right now.

And for the record, I have to mention that I agree with everything Kintor has been writing in this thread

[Michael Watkins]

Alyssa Moy was a fellow student and nearly equal to Reed's in college. She was also Reed's gf before Susan. She and her husband Ted Castle put together the Nu Earth project. But I think she was killed then later her brain was saved and placed in a robotic form. Nu Earth was rapidly decaying the last I recall reading about it in Hickman's Fantastic Four so who knows where she is now.

One of those nu-Earth Defenders (NatalieX) stepped on her brain. But I'd like to see more of Dr.Moy.

[Tiamatty]

I find it hard to believe that any of Marvel's writers would request Moon Girl as a character of their own free will. Just think about the books she's been shoe-horned into and you'd realise how obnoxious and tone deaf her appearances have been.

It's a well-made book, and she's a charming character. Of course other creators want to make use of her.

Associating her with Venom was bad enough, the Symbionts are supposed be some of Marvel's darkest characters, synonymous with madness and body horror. So, who thought it was a good idea to throw the precious child hero into a horror sideshow? On one hand Venom readers are frustrated by having their stories dumbed-down to accommodate Moon Girl. While any of Moon Girl's readers are the wrong target audience for Venom. It's a lose, lose situation.

Venom has been many things. Even just the Eddie Brock Venom has been many things. He's had stories that accentuate the horror side. He's had stories that are more standard superhero fare. The current run, from what I gather, isn't too horror-oriented. And there's no need for stories to be "dumbed-down" to accommodate her, any more than any other character.

Then you have Moon Girl in Secret Empire. Need I remind you that a large part of Secret Warriors was about liberating Inhumans from Hydra run concentration camps. So, who thought it was a good idea to make the innocent child hero witness to Marvel's holocaust pastiche? By all rights Moon Girl should be suffering from some hardcore PTSD after that experience, so say nothing of scarring her readership for life. Oh well, just another example of how Marvel had no idea what they we're doing with Secret Empire.

I mean, I'll agree with Secret Empire being kind of a mess. As far as "Moon Girl should have PTSD," yeah, so should most superheroes. How much PTSD did the Power Pack kids have after being caught up in actual wars with the Snarks? Or the Mutant Massacre, for that record?

I said it before but I think things would've been better if Moon Girl was not part of the shared Marvel Universe. Let her own book be an isolated story, separate from everything else, where it can't bother anybody. Otherwise it just doesn't make any sense; the Marvel universe is not a friendly place, with horrors lurking around every corner, Moon Girl just doesn't fit in.

Yeah, keep the genius girl in her own universe, so the main comics can continue the trend of not letting women be both scientists and superheroes. And, again, kid superheroes aren't anything new. Power Pack. Frigging Power Pack. Katie Power was 4 goddamn years old when that book started AND SHE WENT TO GODDAMN WAR.

You didn't think Dr. Cecilia Reyes was up there? She's no Sinister level genius of course...not too many earth characters are but she's had her moments.

Cecilia's smart, but by no means a super-scientist. She's a talented doctor. And she's also primarily a civilian, who resents occasionally being dragged in superhero bullshit.

That's the thing, she may be a genius but the list is primarily of super geniuses which severely lacks women. The first one I can think of who broke the male dominated top 10 was Valeria, a child, then later Moon Girl and possibly Riri. None of them are adults and I would've liked if Marvel elevated some adult women geniuses like Cecelia too.

There's Toni Ho, who will apparently get a pretty good role in that upcoming weekly Avengers series. I want her to get another superhero identity, to be someone who does both science and punching, not just science. I also really, REALLY hope she gets way more use going forward. I think more books need to be using her.

Alyssa Moy was a fellow student and nearly equal to Reed's in college. She was also Reed's gf before Susan. She and her husband Ted Castle put together the Nu Earth project. But I think she was killed then later her brain was saved and placed in a robotic form. Nu Earth was rapidly decaying the last I recall reading about it in Hickman's Fantastic Four so who knows where she is now.

Moy was also a civilian. That's the thing that gets left out here. It's not just a lack of female geniuses. It's a lack of female geniuses who are also superheroes. Marvel has only ever allowed women to be scientists or superheroes, never both. Bobbi Morse was introduced as a spy/scientist, and as soon as she became a full-fledged superhero, her scientist side faded way into the background.

Hostile? Don't you think you're exaggerating a bit here? Have you been to Marvel meetings from 20 years ago? Did you read/hear of Marvel writers or editors or whatever violently rejecting any idea of a female super-scientist? I sure haven't. Have you been made aware of Marvel actively say, in all of their years of existence, "No, we do NOT want any female scientist superhero"? They haven't refused to do it. They just haven't done it.

Sure, it probably wasn't an intentional choice not to let women be both geniuses and adventurers. But you know what? It still seems like hostility. Because come up with examples of female characters who practised science and wore costumes. Really think about that list. You know what you're going to find? Virtually all villains. That's a weird trend, and I think it says some unsettling things.

And no, I don't see it as a "correction of an imbalance". I see it as a shift in the opposite direction, causing another imbalance the other way. How is that any better? From my perspective (which, of course, is subjective - to each their own), Marvel has systematically killed/sent away/incapacitated all the prominent male geniuses to replace them with smart girls. How is that fair? How is that EQUAL?

If down the line it ends up being women who are constantly called (your words) to solve scientific problems, how is that an improvement? How is that equality? How is that fair? This would just be shifting the balance the other way around. That is not any better than what you're denouncing right now.

It's a temporary thing. The white guys will all be back. Stark's coming back. Banner's coming back. Reed will be back. Doom's still around, though as a Roma, he doesn't really count as white. Hank Pym will be back. We've got two heroic Hank McCoys running around. So the genius white guys will always be around, or will always return if they're taken off the board. What's important is that their return doesn't mean a return to the days when literally every single time a genius-adventurer had to cameo, it was a guy.

Marvel's lack of female genius-adventurers was misogynistic. Whether it was intentional or not is irrelevant, it was still misogynistic. It needed to change. Marvel needs to get away from Reed, Tony and the Hanks being the only geniuses who are allowed to matter. The ones that other heroes always always always always always call when they need science help. Lunella, Riri, Nadia, Toni, even Bobbi - they need to be on that list, too. They need to be used when a book needs to bring in a science-oriented hero.

Five years from now, when Captain America needs help with some tech-based villain, I want it to be just as likely that he calls Toni Ho as Tony Stark. When a bunch of geniuses are gathered to find the solution to a problem, I want Riri and Nadia to be there with Reed and Hank.

I want Marvel to stop its misogynistic bullshit and let female characters be both brilliant and heroic. Let them wear lab coats over their costumes, dammit!

[Kintor]

It's a well-made book, and she's a charming character. Of course other creators want to make use of her.


Venom has been many things. Even just the Eddie Brock Venom has been many things. He's had stories that accentuate the horror side. He's had stories that are more standard superhero fare. The current run, from what I gather, isn't too horror-oriented. And there's no need for stories to be "dumbed-down" to accommodate her, any more than any other character.


I mean, I'll agree with Secret Empire being kind of a mess. As far as "Moon Girl should have PTSD," yeah, so should most superheroes. How much PTSD did the Power Pack kids have after being caught up in actual wars with the Snarks? Or the Mutant Massacre, for that record?


Yeah, keep the genius girl in her own universe, so the main comics can continue the trend of not letting women be both scientists and superheroes. And, again, kid superheroes aren't anything new. Power Pack. Frigging Power Pack. Katie Power was 4 goddamn years old when that book started AND SHE WENT TO GODDAMN WAR.

I don't think you appreciate just how much of a dead weight Moon Girl has become to any book she guest stars in. This whole younger target audience is problem when Moon Girl is being thrown in with mainstream Marvel books like Venom and Secret Warriors, written for a more teen and adult audience. This incompatibility between Moon Girl as a character and the tone of the Marvel universe as a whole is simply irreconcilable.

Marvel prides itself on the 'world outside your window', flawed heroes that have realistic emotional reactions to the situations they encounter. To that end, Moon Girl doesn't function like a normal person; she's a caricature completely unable of coping with the horrors of the Marvel universe. This means that Marvel has two options: either alter the tone of the books to fit Moon Girl or alter Moon Girls design into some semblance of a human being. Marvel has chosen the former and as a result the quality of their books has suffered as a result.

[Da Boat]

I've said this before in a a similar thread. It doesn't effect Reed negatively to not be the smartest, he will still do the same reality breaking things he always does. He doesn't need an arbitrary title and if it elevates another character then good for them.



Because there is a lack of them in the MU, which needed to change. Before Moon Girl, there wasn't a single woman in the top 10 smartest list. That's pretty crappy.
My only problem is that there are no adult women geniuses on the list.

I'm not saying there should not be a ton more of smarter women. There should. In fact they could create an entire team of them. But the ones they create automatically become smarter than the smarter men that ever existed at Marvel.

Hell even if a new male character would show up and he would be smarter than Reed, I would be like "what's the point?". Reed has lasted decades, chances are these new characters won't and all this will be forgotten. How about you give new characters something more interesting so they can last longer. Doing that handicaps these characters with big shoes to fill.

[Tiamatty]

I don't think you appreciate just how much of a dead weight Moon Girl has become to any book she guest stars in. This whole younger target audience is problem when Moon Girl is being thrown in with mainstream Marvel books like Venom and Secret Warriors, written for a more teen and adult audience. This incompatibility between Moon Girl as a character and the tone of the Marvel universe as a whole is simply irreconcilable.

Marvel prides itself on the 'world outside your window', flawed heroes that have realistic emotional reactions to the situations they encounter. To that end, Moon Girl doesn't function like a normal person; she's a caricature completely unable of coping with the horrors of the Marvel universe. This means that Marvel has two options: either alter the tone of the books to fit Moon Girl or alter Moon Girls design into some semblance of a human being. Marvel has chosen the former and as a result the quality of their books has suffered as a result.

You're right, I don't think she's a "dead weight" on other books. Hell, I don't even think the point, with most of her cameos, is to target a younger audience. The point is that other creators like her and want to play with her. Also, remember that Moon Girl does have a not-insignificant fanbase among teen and adult readers, too. There's plenty of adults who love her. Myself included. And the adults who like Moon Girl are pretty OK with her running around sassing Quake and being Karnak's friend. Would Secret Warriors have a different tone if Moon Girl wasn't in it? It's impossible to tell, as I suspect her inclusion was something Rosenberg decided on early in the planning. Maybe he would have gone darker, though given Ms. Marvel is also in the book, probably not. Either way, there's nothing "irreconcilable" here. Except to you. You're the one who has a problem with her being in other books. And you choose to project that issue onto everyone else, pretending that all readers think she doesn't belong outside her own title. What, you think that Secret Warriors would have double its sales without Lunella in it, or something? Come on.

And the idea that heroes have "realistic emotional reactions" is hilariously wrong. Most characters will see their best friend murdered right in front of them, and 3 pages later, they're quipping during a fight. And then they get maybe one issue of grieving and move right on. It's rare to see characters dealing with anything in a legitimately realistic manner. Seriously, I get excited every time a superhero is shown as being in therapy, because that is a realistic reaction. The way pretty much all characters basically shrug off all the trauma they've been through is not realistic. They should all have PTSD and be on medication.




I do find it amusing how basically all the female superhero geniuses get constantly shit on. But people totally have no problem with female superhero geniuses. They just have problems with all the ones that actually exist. But they're totally cool with it in principle, until it actually happens, and then there's the need to say how much those characters suck. Sure would be nice if, instead of just constantly shitting on the characters they don't like, they would instead talk up the characters they do like. You don't like Moon Girl? Fine, then talk about what you'd like to see happen with Toni Ho. Talk about how you'd like to see Tilda Johnson join the Defenders. Talk about how much you'd like to see Mockingbird's scientific background emphasized more.

But I guess it's just easier to shit on characters that other people enjoy than it is to make an effort to praise any character who isn't a straight white dude.

[Haquim]

That's the thing, she may be a genius but the list is primarily of super geniuses which severely lacks women. The first one I can think of who broke the male dominated top 10 was Valeria, a child, then later Moon Girl and possibly Riri. None of them are adults and I would've liked if Marvel elevated some adult women geniuses like Cecelia too.

Valeria Richards and Monica Rappacini, just to name 2. As for Moon Girl, her creators themselves explained the "title" was given to her in an attempt to gather her more "respect" and more readers for her book. Not a huge deal imo.
The only problem I can see is that "the smartest person in the whole MU" used to be Reed Richards and by taking the title away in a bid to boost another character they somehow diminish his stature, but basically this is the problem with most "all new all different" marvel characters: the authors introduced them and thought they just needed to claim they were so much better than those who came before in order to gain readers. It did not work because just claiming someone "is much better" is no sobstitute for good storytelling.

[leo619]

What difference does it make? It's not like it negates all the cool stuff Reed has invented.

Because that would mean white characters aren't the greatest at everything? They had a monopoly on the greatest of every single subject that removing one somehow signals the end of time. What's next, making a black character stronger than the hulk? Asinine!!

[kilderkin]

In an effort to analyse the situation

Reed richards has long established himself as the greatest scientific hero mind there is, he himself has said Valeria age for age is smarter, maybe that's the rose tinted view of a parent?

But no hero has reeds track record, no one really comes close, Tony smart, but reeds run in ff was a new invention breaking the laws of physics every other week

Now banner invents a puzzle we hear was designed not to be solved, and the person who designed it couldn't, maybe they weren't smart enough or maybe the super genius with low self esteem and huge confidence issues couldn't solve it coz they didn't think it was possible?

By the by, it's almost irrelevant because it wasn't built by the smartest person around based on track record, reed, so we really don't know how hard it was t that level

now some university think tank says it's so - but they ain't reed, or tony, or banner, or pym, or T'Challa,

But cho does back this up and he's in that bracket

So we can conclude that a puzzle designed by a very flawed super genius was beaten by another, and that some people, including another super genius agrees with the idea the solver is the smartest

One feat draws that conclusion, unless I missed something (likely did I admit)

now allowing for the relative short lifespan of the character we are left with the notion that she is clearly smart in the super genius level, is still likely to get smarter, and hasn't had the in panel chances other older characters have had to do their thing

But solving one puzzle, no matter how hard proves your the smartest on earth?

so I'm curious what else has she done?

I've seen her be smart in secret warriors but nothing utterly mind blowing like invent a stable portal to the negative zone

haven't read moon girl so can't comment

My point here is, what else is there to back up this claim she's the smartest by her writers

I'll stress I like her in secret warriors, I have no issue with her being this level of brains, but where's the feats in panel?

Help me out here!

[kilderkin]

As for smartest people generally

I was always dissapointed they didn't include moira mctaggart and kitty pride in that list of smartest people

[Iron Maiden]

As for smartest people generally

I was always dissapointed they didn't include moira mctaggart and kitty pride in that list of smartest people

But aren't their fields pretty limited? Moira's field of expertise is mostly in genetics, right? That seems to be the case with many of the scientists in the X-Men.

Of the members in the group being discussed, Doom is probably the only polymath. And he dabbles in other things like music and the arts.
Maybe the Blue Marvel is a polymath also. Everyone seems to forget about him.

[BAS]

The issue with Moon Girl being declared 'Smartest' is that the proclamation was made arbitrarily by a writer who just wanted her declared that way.

So they make up a 'Banner test' that no one has ever heard of until the issue it's introduced, and she solves it in a vacuum.
Reed, Doom, Stark, T'Challa, Brashear and others were not verified as having participated in it.

I have no issue with there being new, young characters who prove to be better than those other characters, but it needs to be proven in-story. Put her in a situation with the other characters and let her solve it when the others fail. Let them acknowledge her talents. Don't just blindly declare something that hasn't been proven.

[Iron Maiden]

The issue with Moon Girl being declared 'Smartest' is that the proclamation was made arbitrarily by a writer who just wanted her declared that way.

So they make up a 'Banner test' that no one has ever heard of until the issue it's introduced, and she solves it in a vacuum.
Reed, Doom, Stark, T'Challa, Brashear and others were not verified as having participated in it.

I have no issue with there being new, young characters who prove to be better than those other characters, but it needs to be proven in-story. Put her in a situation with the other characters and let her solve it when the others fail. Let them acknowledge her talents. Don't just blindly declare something that hasn't been proven.

I don't know why but this thread kind of reminds me of the Quick and the Dead where the brash young shootist Leonardo DiCaprio is killed by the old pro Gene Hackman in a shooting match