15th anniversary of Brand New Day. Hooray?

[Matt Rat]

I'll have to remember to check for the 20th, 25th, and 30th anniversary threads over the next 15 years to see how many of the same posters from the past 15 years are still waiting for the marriage to be re-instated. I honestly hope that number is zero by 2038 (but wouldn't be too surprised to see the same names).

Anti-marriage fans need to accept that this isn't happening no matter how badly they crave it. Marvel still value the audience that appreciates Peter and MJ and the marriage concept, there is a movie coming out where they have a child, and they recently reprinted the Wedding Album, so new readers are always being introduced or reminded of that chapter in Peter's life. Some may even come to prefer that as they get older, and I already know of many former pro-BND fans who have.

And they'll also likely still publish marriage stories in AUs or in an idealised past to keep us happy and thus giving us no reason to shut up about it

Marriage hasn't gone anywhere, and that'll continue.

[Joe Sidetracked]

The elephant in the room is still that the marriage was retconned as a result of a deal with the Devil.

Married or not, to me that's a huge factor (probably the biggest) in Spider-Man's dissolution as a character in recent decades. Until that's resolved then IMO 616 Peter and MJ are tainted.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

I'll have to remember to check for the 20th, 25th, and 30th anniversary threads over the next 15 years to see how many of the same posters from the past 15 years are still waiting for the marriage to be re-instated. I honestly hope that number is zero by 2038 (but wouldn't be too surprised to see the same names).

It's already been established that it's not just older fans that complain about OMD. That idea has always been a myth and Marvel PR.

The same is likely to continue as there is no sign of OMD aging any better - here or anywhere else on the internet.

[Daibhidh]

I didn't have any strong feelings about the marriage a few years ago. Then I joined Marvel Unlimited and read To Have and To Hold and the proposal and wedding story and JMS' run (as well as the David and Aguirre-Sacasa runs). I think that as long as those stories are up on Marvel Unlimited there is going to be a steady stream of people who want to see the marriage back.

[Alex_Of_X]

When talk turns to marriage, the Spider-man fans tend to split into staunch pro-s and anti-s.

I mostly find myself neutral in this great tug-of-war. I like the pre-marriage years. I like the marriage years. I like the post-marriage years. I don't think any of these three--four,* I would argue--periods are on average any better or worse than the other.

I think disproportionate amounts of hate are slung at post-marriage stories, AND I think MJ gets undue hate from the never-marriers. She's a super great, fun, firecracker of a character, easy Spidey characters hall of fame inductee. Nothing but love and respect for her.

That said, as many great spidey stories have been written with her, as there have been without her.

*Lee\Ditko\Romita\Kane is a whole other beast than what came after

[Matt Rat]

That said, as many great spidey stories have been written with her, as there have been without her.

I don't count that many actually. Peter said it best at the top of Spencer's run and even in JMS's run, without MJ, nothing works

[TinkerSpider]

15 years isn't as long as you might think, and comics don't change much anyway. Don't know if this place will still be around, though. Me either.

Manga is eating American superhero comics for lunch in the market; manga took over the top spot in the US market in 2018 and has grown exponentially to be very dominant while sales of superhero comics have only risen marginally at best. US comic book retailers credit manga, not monthly floppies, for keeping their doors open during the pandemic. Digital sales are a fraction of print sales. And according to Pew, GenZ has less interest in superheroes than Millennials, and Millennials have less interest than GenX/Boomers. GenZ does read manga.

And superhero comics are owned by big media companies who only care about the underlying IP rights; they don’t want to be in the publishing business, it’s not their primary business and there are no synergies/economies of scale to be had, especially with paper and printing costs rising. The price of comics to the consumer is already prohibitive compared to books, films, games, online distractions, etc so raising prices will only get them so far. Therefore, their incentive to keep a treading water/declining business afloat is minimal at best. There are already strong rumors Warner Discovery is looking to sell/license the publishing arm of DC; they’ll keep the film/TV rights, naturally.

So I doubt monthly comics as we know them will be around in 15 years. They might transition to limited series digital only, to be used as R&D for films/TV, or maybe one-off graphic novels for the same reason.

[WebLurker]

I have nothing against the pairing. Some of the fans go overboard, and I argue with that on occasion.

I sometimes think that, with these threads, fans don't want to discuss or debate, but want to vent their frustrations over the situation.

My main objection to the marriage in the comics was that I don't think it worked in the long-term in the specific context of a Spider-Man whose adventures are expected to be published indefinitely.

I have yet to hear an actual explanation to support or "justify" that claim, beyond the assertion in and of itself or just being a statement of personal preference (which fair enough if one prefers a single Spider-Man, but that does not mean that the marriage was or was not viable as the long-term status quo).

There was a video against Star Wars Episode 1 I saw years ago that did make a point about how you should be able to distinguish characters by things that aren't related to the profession or appearance. And that got me thinking about how Ultimate MJ was pretty different from the original Mary Jane Watson, and that later Zendaya was different from both of them. And that got me wondering if this argument isn't about Mary Jane being special, but about her being established as the endgame, which is a different argument than the one we usually have.

Adaptations will take facets of things and adapt stuff out in the retelling process, so differences are to be expected. In any event, Mary Jane does maintain some consistent traits across the adaptations in question. In the case of Ultimate, her troubled home life is factored into a few stories, while her dynamic with Peter echos their 616 variant's married life (MJ is seen helping Peter in small ways behind-the-scenes and being a moral support, not to mention how the strain of having a significant other in a dangerous profession isn't sugarcoated). In the Raimi movies, we get her troubled home life, aspirations to showbiz, and a bit of the carefree mask she wore in her younger years. MCU might be the outlier, but MJ Jones-Watson was always more a homage than anything else.

If anything, Gwen Stacy is a better analogy of a character who's basically reimagined from scratch every time a new major incarnation is made (heck, Stone's version in the movie is basically Ultimate MJ with a different name and added science skills).

[Alan2099]

If anything, Gwen Stacy is a better analogy of a character who's basically reimagined from scratch every time a new major incarnation is made (heck, Stone's version in the movie is basically Ultimate MJ with a different name and added science skills).

Funny that you say this because I always felt that Ultimate MJ felt more like regular Gwen and Ultimate Gwen felt more like regular MJ.

[DT Winslow]

Holy cow, fifteen years. It was really an exciting time. The brain trust was fun. Gale was the weak link, which I think was interesting because plot wise, he wasn’t terrible. Art wise, it was a really great time. I’m not too fond of Phil Jimenez but with the shipping schedule, it was on to the next quickly. Slott is clearly the MVP with Joe Kelly coming in and surprising the heck out of me with American Son. 600 was such a great anniversary issue. Man, I’m gonna have to reread the whole thing once I’m done with Fractions Iron Man. Gah, so much fun!

[WebLurker]

Funny that you say this because I always felt that Ultimate MJ felt more like regular Gwen and Ultimate Gwen felt more like regular MJ.

And the people who made the original movie trilogy have gone on record that their takes on MJ and Gwen were composites of each other in some ways, too.

Not sure I see much of the original Gwen in Ultimate MJ (being being Peter's first serious girlfriend and being the subject of the comics take on the bridge incident), but I do think original Gwen had some weak characterization.

Ultimate Gwen was a bit of a troubled punk. Could see that working as an update to MJ, but Bendis didn't go that route. Still, she doesn't have much in common with the original Gwen, either, which is the point i was making.

[Spider-Tiger]

One thing I wonder about the multi-verse films (which includes No Way Home) is that they may lead to a different impression of what Spider-Man is.

One argument is that the movies show that Peter Parker will always end up with MJ.

But you could also look at it as Peter Parker having a main love interest. The Tobey Maguire Peter Parker was in love with a redhead aspiring actress. The Andrew Garfield Peter Parker was in love with a blonde who liked science. The Tom Holland Peter Parker was in love with a cynical artistic biracial girl.

For the comments that Zendaya's MJ is the same character as the Mary Jane Watson of the comics, what attributes are unique to the MJ of the comics that also apply to the MCU's Michelle Jones?

Ultimate Mary Jane seemed quite different from the Mary Jane of the comics.

Most young people today consume or have consumed Spider-man through multiple forms of media: film (animated and live action), television, games, etc. The overwhelming majority of these feature Mary Jane as Peter's love interest. The MCU films themselves exist concurrently with the PS4 universe and ITSV which also feature Mary Jane (and are also both mega hits). There are some versions that deviate from the typical MJ in terms of characterization, but that's true of Peter's entire supporting cast (and Peter himself.) Most of the MCU cast don't even remotely resemble the traditional versions of those characters. But even the MCU banks on the name recognition of "MJ" and what that means within the context of Spider-man.

I have nothing against the pairing. Some of the fans go overboard, and I argue with that on occasion.

My main objection to the marriage in the comics was that I don't think it worked in the long-term in the specific context of a Spider-Man whose adventures are expected to be published indefinitely.

There was a video against Star Wars Episode 1 I saw years ago that did make a point about how you should be able to distinguish characters by things that aren't related to the profession or appearance. And that got me thinking about how Ultimate MJ was pretty different from the original Mary Jane Watson, and that later Zendaya was different from both of them. And that got me wondering if this argument isn't about Mary Jane being special, but about her being established as the endgame, which is a different argument than the one we usually have.

I think the argument has been that MJ is Peter's most iconic and recognizable love interest (due to the many adaptations that feature a version of that character as Peter's love interest) and so attempts at "replacing" her or minimizing her significance in the 616 comics are futile. As long as other media continue to feature Mary Jane or MJ, the comics will cycle back to the character as well. So what we end up with is a revolving door of the same make-up/break-up type stories with MJ in the 616 universe. And that becomes tiresome.

None of that has to do with MJ being "special." Although 616 MJ being "special" is what propelled her into the position of being spider-man's longest running romantic relationship in the 616 universe (And thus why so many adaptations use some variant of the character as Peter's go-to love interest today)

[Spider-Tiger]

Anti-marriage fans need to accept that this isn't happening no matter how badly they crave it. Marvel still value the audience that appreciates Peter and MJ and the marriage concept, there is a movie coming out where they have a child, and they recently reprinted the Wedding Album, so new readers are always being introduced or reminded of that chapter in Peter's life. Some may even come to prefer that as they get older, and I already know of many former pro-BND fans who have.

And they'll also likely still publish marriage stories in AUs or in an idealised past to keep us happy and thus giving us no reason to shut up about it

Marriage hasn't gone anywhere, and that'll continue.

Well, I'm in my late 20s. Wasn't anywhere near here circa 2007. My parents hadn't even met in 1987. Maybe I'm the exception, but the impression I've gotten from online spaces is not quite.

When I was younger, I had a cd that contained a bunch of Amazing back issues in pdf format. That's how I initially read most of the marriage era stories. But I was also subscribed monthly during the BND era through Superior.

So my exposure to the bulk of Spider-Man and the marriage era wasn't typical month to month, but consuming practically a years' worth of Amazing in an afternoon. That's how a lot of readers are being exposed to Amazing with digital back issues. When you digest the stories that way, OMD/BND reads like someone took a massive dump on the overarching narrative:

"everything you just read is a lie and didn't quite actually happen that way, but we're not going to explain what really happened. Just pretend like it all makes sense." (laughs nervously)

It also reads like an unresolved story arc in which Peter and MJ will, at some point, prevail against Mephisto. That's what I don't think the older pro-OMD readers/writers quite understand. It has less to do with the Spider-marriage needing to be a constant status quo in every comic or version of Spider-man, and more to do with how severely its undoing damaged Spider-Man's original continuity and the way in which its characters are written.

Quesada and co. basically ensured that people will continue to complain about it until the day it is undone or 616 is no more... whichever comes first

[Knightsilver]

Well, I'm in my late 20s. Wasn't anywhere near here circa 2007. My parents hadn't even met in 1987. Maybe I'm the exception, but the impression I've gotten from online spaces is not quite.

When I was younger, I had a cd that contained a bunch of Amazing back issues in pdf format. That's how I initially read most of the marriage era stories. But I was also subscribed monthly during the BND era through Superior.

So my exposure to the bulk of Spider-Man and the marriage era wasn't typical month to month, but consuming practically a years' worth of Amazing in an afternoon. That's how a lot of readers are being exposed to Amazing with digital back issues. When you digest the stories that way, OMD/BND reads like someone took a massive dump on the overarching narrative:

"everything you just read is a lie and didn't quite actually happen that way, but we're not going to explain what really happened. Just pretend like it all makes sense." (laughs nervously)

It also reads like an unresolved story arc in which Peter and MJ will, at some point, prevail against Mephisto. That's what I don't think the older pro-OMD readers/writers quite understand. It has less to do with the Spider-marriage needing to be a constant status quo in every comic or version of Spider-man, and more to do with how severely its undoing damaged Spider-Man's original continuity and the way in which its characters are written.

Quesada and co. basically ensured that people will continue to complain about it until the day it is undone or 616 is no more... whichever comes first

Quesada and Co. were confident that in 5 years...all the complaints would go away( they literally said this). 16 years and counting...oh well.

[Alex_Of_X]

I don't count that many actually. Peter said it best at the top of Spencer's run and even in JMS's run, without MJ, nothing works

I dunno about that. Even among non-controvercial pics, just in ASM we have the Lee\Ditko years, Gwen Dying, Nothing can stop the Juggernaut, Kid who collects Spider-Man, JMS's Homecoming and the Conversation, BND's Unscheduled stop and Slott's, say, No One Dies