Flash War: Wally Classic vs. Barry

[Sam]

Talked to a bunch of creators, played some game demos (Bloodstained is going to be SO good), took pictures with a bunch of people who asked, got merch, went to a panel, and some other stuff.

Sounds like a good first experience. Getting a little of everything in there.

No, I didn't catch any of the rangers there. In the past though, I've gotten to meet JDF, get a picture with him and got him to sign a White Ranger POP.

Too bad. I had met JDF and Walter Jones previously. So this year was all about David Yost and Austin St. John. Both were awesome.

Age has nothing to do with anything. See, I'm a crazy person, and I've watched every episode of Power Rangers ever made...except for a lot of Ninja Steel which I'm putting off as long as possible because lord is it bad. Plus, I did still start with the Zordon era, my earliest memory of Power Rangers being watching a VHS of "Food Fight". My favorite seasons, in order, are: Time Force, RPM, and In Space.

In my years associating with the Ranger fandom, I've learned not to just assume everyone is into MMPR. Such assumptions cause some certain people to have meltdowns, so I tend to air on the side of caution.

Funny, Food Fight was my first episode too.

THAT IS SO COOL!

It was insanely cool.

I actually did see a couples Cass's, one Batgirl and one Orphan. As for me, I was cosplaying as my SECOND favorite DC hero, Slobo. Was a lot of fun getting to talk to his creators (Peter David and Todd Nauck) and I actually learned some new stuff (Which I will bring up on the YJ thread soon) Nauck thought it was particularity cool, since he was really enthusiastic about the character, and I was only the third Slobo cosplayer he'd ever met. (Also showing how excited he was, he REALLY wants to do a 20th Anniversary YJ special)

I saw a really good Stephanie Brown Batgirl and many Barbara Gordan Batgirls (including a sixties one which was awesome), but I must have missed the Cass

The moment the Flash Family is fully restored is the moment I'll give Barry the time of day again. Until then, my own personal bitterness would get in the way of enjoying anything with him in the lead, regardless of quality.

See, I can't operate like that. For me, if something is good, it's good, not matter what characters are being used. Otherwise, I'd miss out on some great stuff I really enjoy.

[Ascended]

Was a lot of fun getting to talk to his creators (Peter David and Todd Nauck) and I actually learned some new stuff (Which I will bring up on the YJ thread soon) Nauck thought it was particularity cool, since he was really enthusiastic about the character, and I was only the third Slobo cosplayer he'd ever met. (Also showing how excited he was, he REALLY wants to do a 20th Anniversary YJ special) .

Nice! I never met Nauck but I spoke to him many times back on the old DC boards (and PAD did post a few times as well as I recall). Seemed like a really nice guy, and was always kind and polite, even when the fans weren't.

I used to run FLIP, a joke organization on the DCMB making fun of HEAT, where our goal was to get Freakazoid into the original YJ comic...Nauck got along with us really well and actually drew Freakazoid into several issues (t-shirts, coffee mugs, etc), and I got a cameo as a terrified bystander. But I dont really do cons, so I've never had the chance to met him in person.

[married guy]

Seeing this just makes me more nervous that Wally West is going to get shafted AGAIN.
DC have been pretty clear that it's Barry or nothing regarding the Flash. Unless there's been a serious change of heart, I don't see how anyone wins here except Barry Allen fans.

[Jokerz79]

So naturally, that's where I stepped in today

We talked for a good few minutes and I got a lot of the same info Sam delivered regarding Flash War (It's NOT like Civil War, it's the equivalent to a disagreement between best friends, both characters will end it in a good place, etc.) I also got near-confirmation that Wally will NOT be losing the Flash name.

Unsurprisingly for his age, Wally is HIS Flash, he truly, truly loves the Flash Family (I think Sam can concur that his passion is VERY real and blatant) and also part of why he loves Bart, as he was the same age as him when he started reading comics.

Some really nice quotes, not exact: "Not a day goes by that I don't think about bringing Bart back" and "I actually have dreams about restoring the Flash Family."

I asked about Max, and he shared the same passion for him, which I expected. And while I wasn't NOT-expecting it, it was still nice to see that he even had the same passion about Jenni when I asked about her.

For all three, he's nothing but excited, and I really think there are plans in the works for them, since it was obvious that there were things he couldn't say.

Two very interesting things though?

1. Williamson has been talking to Tynion a lot (I think he might have caught himself when he said that and said next that he meant that they talk about the original Young Justice comic) and when someone I talked to at the con talked to Tynion, asking him about Kon, Tynion brought up Bart.

and

2. Hehehehehe....So, I know there are several on this forum who don't care for Iris and Jai west. Personally, I love them and I know plenty of others do as well . And the reaction I got when I asked about them and WHY Wally hasn't mentioned them once was a bit more telling than Williamson's raw passion for the others: He grinned, and covered his mouth. I think these two may be coming back a lot sooner than some of us thought.

And if Williamson has his way, we may just get everyone back.

I'd be so happy if Iris and Jai were brought back. Wally is my Flash and I love his version of the Flash family with himself, his kids, Jay, Bart, Jesse, Max, and Barry.

[Waterfall]

Interpreting Williamson's reactions as "kids are coming back" seems to be reaching. There are a great deal of reasons they can't become part of main DCU for foreseeble future.

Can their absence be resolved? Most likely. Their eventual existence can be confirmed just like Don & Dawn's did, they can even occasionally time travel maybe...But I'm not buying this as a certain return.

[Jokerz79]

Interpreting Williamson's reactions as "kids are coming back" seems to be reaching. There are a great deal of reasons they can't become part of main DCU for foreseeble future.

Can their absence be resolved? Most likely. Their eventual existence can be confirmed just like Don & Dawn's did, they can even occasionally time travel maybe...But I'm not buying this as a certain return.

Why couldn't they comeback? It's already been established time was stolen even Jon has been rewritten into Superman's timeline erasing any former 5 year rules or anything.

[RedWhiteAndBlueSupes]

Probably not, but it would still beat his current status quo.

Oh "Keystone Flash" would be the best thing to happen in flash comics since 2010 lol.

The thing is, Wally is really different from Dick in terms of their circumstances.

Both had to deal with stepping out of their mentors shadows, but Wally had to do it by actually succeeding and surpassing his mentor while Dick just created his own identity. Being The Flash became more intrinsic to who Wally is then being Batman was for Dick.

Wally also has plenty of his own stuff as Flash to make him distinctive from Barry that being the Flash of Keystone would probably be fine as long as they gave that stuff back to him. Certainly none of Wally's most-reccomended run seem as divisive within the fandom as Bludhaven is for Nightwing.

So maybe stop having Barry fight Wally's Rogues or hanging out with his supporting characters (or giving Wally II OG Wally's supporting characters).

pretty much...yep

2. Hehehehehe....So, I know there are several on this forum who don't care for Iris and Jai west. Personally, I love them and I know plenty of others do as well . And the reaction I got when I asked about them and WHY Wally hasn't mentioned them once was a bit more telling than Williamson's raw passion for the others: He grinned, and covered his mouth. I think these two may be coming back a lot sooner than some of us thought.

And if Williamson has his way, we may just get everyone back.

i recall him bringing them up in an interview a few years ago, he didnt shy away from it. But ya I agree I think they will def show up again...hes on some kind of editorial leash regarding them.

[RedWhiteAndBlueSupes]

Weighing in on the "is Barry selfish" stuff from a few pages back.

No I dont blame Barry for screwing up the dcu.(psssst...didio) But he does act out of character in flashpoint and his association with the event and its effects have soured me on him somewhat.

[Ascended]

Well, I dont blame Barry for going back to save his mother. Thawne screwed with the timeline, and it's sort of the hero's job to stop the bad guy. That the villain made such a small, personal change is neither here nor there; he changed time so it was Barry's job to fix it (actually it should've been Booster's, but I digress). If someone stopped Krypton from exploding or saved the Waynes, we'd expect the heroes to fix that too.

The problem arises from how it played out. Thawne changed history, but he did it with the careful, precise skill of a master surgeon. Nora Allen died but nothing else changed. No one else was noticeably hurt by Thawne's actions outside of the Allen family. But when Barry tried to fix things he went in with all the subtlety of a sledge hammer and completely f**ked the timeline. So not only does he look incompetent, he looks selfish because he broke reality just to save his mommy.

And the death of Nora Allen isn't something that got immediate attention or resolution. Barry didn't try to fix it immediately, it was the status quo for at least a year; from Rebirth to Flashpoint. And Barry hasn't done anything about it since then either. So it feels less like a hero trying to fix altered time, and more like a hero just trying to change his own status quo.

[Frontier]

Well, I dont blame Barry for going back to save his mother. Thawne screwed with the timeline, and it's sort of the hero's job to stop the bad guy. That the villain made such a small, personal change is neither here nor there; he changed time so it was Barry's job to fix it (actually it should've been Booster's, but I digress). If someone stopped Krypton from exploding or saved the Waynes, we'd expect the heroes to fix that too.

The problem arises from how it played out. Thawne changed history, but he did it with the careful, precise skill of a master surgeon. Nora Allen died but nothing else changed. No one else was noticeably hurt by Thawne's actions outside of the Allen family. But when Barry tried to fix things he went in with all the subtlety of a sledge hammer and completely f**ked the timeline. So not only does he look incompetent, he looks selfish because he broke reality just to save his mommy.

I don't think they ever clarified how Thawne was able to get away with what he did while Barry's attempts to fix things screwed things up. It just seemed kind of arbitrary. I guess cold-blooded murder is more precise then saving someone, but it doesn't really seem all that different.

Was it because Thawne had the Negative Speed Force? I don't think Barry was aware that was how Thawne was able to just kill Nora without upsetting the timestream too much.

At least on the TV show they explained that Thawne killing Nora was spur of the moment and screwed him up as much as it did Barry, and then established that continually messing with time just always makes things worse rather then just one change being okay while somehow another isn't.

And the death of Nora Allen isn't something that got immediate attention or resolution. Barry didn't try to fix it immediately, it was the status quo for at least a year; from Rebirth to Flashpoint. And Barry hasn't done anything about it since then either. So it feels less like a hero trying to fix altered time, and more like a hero just trying to change his own status quo.

I mean, it's obviously tied to Barry's personally but I don't think one doesn't lend itself to the other.

[Stanlos]

Like I said over in the NYCC thread... this just reeks of DC setting out to confirm once and for all that Barry is best, because the subtle approach they've been using since Barry came back to life wasn't enough.

That is hilarious to me. Mark Waid and Wally West made the Flash relevant and cool for me. Had no care prior to Wally.

[Kyer]

But didt Thawne as well as Barry majorly screw up the timeline when he killed Nora? (I didn't read the comics past a couple of pages, so this is an actual question.)

How long was it between Thawne's act of destruction and Barry's going back in time?

[Ascended]

I don't think they ever clarified how Thawne was able to get away with what he did while Barry's attempts to fix things screwed things up. It just seemed kind of arbitrary. I guess cold-blooded murder is more precise then saving someone, but it doesn't really seem all that different.

Was it because Thawne had the Negative Speed Force? I don't think Barry was aware that was how Thawne was able to just kill Nora without upsetting the timestream too much.

At least on the TV show they explained that Thawne killing Nora was spur of the moment and screwed him up as much as it did Barry, and then established that continually messing with time just always makes things worse rather then just one change being okay while somehow another isn't.

I mean, it's obviously tied to Barry's personally but I don't think one doesn't lend itself to the other.

I've just always figured Thawne was a lot more careful than Barry was. Also, due to Thawne's unique relationship with time, he's probably better suited to changing history and managing the ripple effects.

We've seen Barry change history with minimal unintended consequences before. With Flashpoint he was probably distracted and not on his best game, considering the personal nature of it all. But no, as far as I know they never really explained how Thawne was able to do what he did without completely screwing up all of reality.

[Ascended]

But didt Thawne as well as Barry majorly screw up the timeline when he killed Nora? (I didn't read the comics past a couple of pages, so this is an actual question.)

How long was it between Thawne's act of destruction and Barry's going back in time?

It's been a long time since I read the story, but if I recall correctly.....

Thawne was brought back to life by the White Lantern entity at the end of Blackest Night, circa 2010 or so. He then ran into the past and killed Nora Allen, then ran into 2009 so he could rub it in Barry's face (Barry having just returned at that point). Barry wouldn't go back to fix things until 2011, when he caused the Flashpoint.

So it was roughly two years between Flash Rebirth and Flashpoint, but comics work at a different pace than the real world. I'd say that for Barry, it was anywhere from six months to a year between him learning that Thawne was responsible for killing Nora and his going back to stop it. Not a "ton" of time, but it certainly doesn't lend a sense of urgency to things either. You'd think that a major villain screwing with time would elicit a bigger, more immediate response.

[Lightning Rider]

It's been a long time since I read the story, but if I recall correctly.....

Thawne was brought back to life by the White Lantern entity at the end of Blackest Night, circa 2010 or so. He then ran into the past and killed Nora Allen, then ran into 2009 so he could rub it in Barry's face (Barry having just returned at that point). Barry wouldn't go back to fix things until 2011, when he caused the Flashpoint.

So it was roughly two years between Flash Rebirth and Flashpoint, but comics work at a different pace than the real world. I'd say that for Barry, it was anywhere from six months to a year between him learning that Thawne was responsible for killing Nora and his going back to stop it. Not a "ton" of time, but it certainly doesn't lend a sense of urgency to things either. You'd think that a major villain screwing with time would elicit a bigger, more immediate response.

It didn't seem fundamentally clear to Barry though that it was an "alteration" since his memory was of his mom always being dead. When something changes and you don't notice it, the sense of urgency isn't the same, since it's not like you can remember how it was before. That's just my impression.