What did you think of Sandman as a hero?

[Huntsman Spider]

Sorry, typewriting error. I meant "Captain Marvel" and not "Captain America".

It's cool. Happens to all of us.

[Uncanny Mutie]

If cool powers and fight scenes are all there is to him then that is not adequate reason to keep him a villain. Heroes can have cool fight scenes and powers and he has done nothing of notice ever since he went back to being a villain. A guy who turned his life around to do goof offers way more than another forgettable enemy.

I don't think you fully understood my post, or maybe I didn't articulate it as well as I thought: Not only does Sandman have extremely cool and versatile powers, but they complement SPIDER-MAN'S powers and fighting ability perfectly, and the two of them LOOK great fighting against each other, on screen or in panels. Sandman is a PERFECT villain for Spider-Man.

[babyblob]

I would rather have him as a villain. My first Spiderman stories were of him fighting Sandman and I loved it. And he was a great member of the Frightful Four. As stated before as a hero he never really found his place. Just one among many of low tier heroes. I dont like how they turned him back into a villain. I think if the heroes found out about The Wizard mind controlling him then they would help out. At least they should if he was trying to walk a good path. Maybe they will have Sandman slowly fight his mind control and go after The Wizard. That would make a good story but I doubt it will happen as Marvel seems to like the status Quo despite what the fans want.

[Uncanny Mutie]

As stated before as a hero he never really found his place. Just one among many of low tier heroes.

Exactly! As a hero, he was basically as low tier as a hero could be, never really got any attention or development aside from writers ocassionally obligatorily mentioning the fact that he was a reformed villain, and was pretty much D-list wallpaper. So it really surprises me to see so many posters here say they liked him best as a hero and that all of his "development" got thrown out the window when they made him a villain again. Especially posters on a SPIDER-MAN forum!

[Agent Z]

I don't think you fully understood my post, or maybe I didn't articulate it as well as I thought: Not only does Sandman have extremely cool and versatile powers, but they complement SPIDER-MAN'S powers and fighting ability perfectly, and the two of them LOOK great fighting against each other, on screen or in panels. Sandman is a PERFECT villain for Spider-Man.

I understood your post. I just disagree with it.

Exactly! As a hero, he was basically as low tier as a hero could be, never really got any attention or development aside from writers ocassionally obligatorily mentioning the fact that he was a reformed villain, and was pretty much D-list wallpaper. So it really surprises me to see so many posters here say they liked him best as a hero and that all of his "development" got thrown out the window when they made him a villain again. Especially posters on a SPIDER-MAN forum!

What development or major attention has he gotten since becoming a villain again? As a hero, he was a member of the Avengers. As a villain, he's either a forgettable member of a d-list supervillain team or a lackey for someone else. He may not have skyrocketed to a-list status as a hero but it was still far better than were he is now.

[Uncanny Mutie]

I understood your post. I just disagree with it.



What development or major attention has he gotten since becoming a villain again? As a hero, he was a member of the Avengers. As a villain, he's either a forgettable member of a d-list supervillain team or a lackey for someone else. He may not have skyrocketed to a-list status as a hero but it was still far better than were he is now.

We'll just agree to disagree, then.

[The Overlord]

I would rather have him as a villain. My first Spiderman stories were of him fighting Sandman and I loved it. And he was a great member of the Frightful Four. As stated before as a hero he never really found his place. Just one among many of low tier heroes. I dont like how they turned him back into a villain. I think if the heroes found out about The Wizard mind controlling him then they would help out. At least they should if he was trying to walk a good path. Maybe they will have Sandman slowly fight his mind control and go after The Wizard. That would make a good story but I doubt it will happen as Marvel seems to like the status Quo despite what the fans want.

The problem is if he remains a villain, he needs a better motive than ''I am a greedy bank-robbing villain, which is a totally a unique character and not someone the writers have done a million times already.'' Give him some pathos or something, rather then him robbing banks or acting like muscle for Dr. Octopus and Wizard.

[boots]

It's cool. Happens to all of us.

uh, not to em

[ngroove]

The idea of a super-villain going straight is an interesting one, but in this case more was lost than gained. As a Spider-Man villain, he was one of the best.

Back when Sandman "reformed", 1982-ish, he was more of a Marvel bad guy, or if he was pegged with one type of hero property, I'd say he was more Fantastic Four's.

He did battle Spider-Man a few times after his first set of battles against him, 1963 - 1964, but his meetings afterwards with Spidey was sparse, compared to his battlings, by himself or with the Frightful Four, against the Fantastic Four, the Incredible Hulk, and Nova.

[ngroove]

Exactly! As a hero, he was basically as low tier as a hero could be, never really got any attention or development aside from writers ocassionally obligatorily mentioning the fact that he was a reformed villain, and was pretty much D-list wallpaper.

As an Avenger, perhaps.

But, he was a powerhouse regular on SILVER SABLE AND THE WILD PACK.

[Lee]

Back when Sandman "reformed", 1982-ish, he was more of a Marvel bad guy, or if he was pegged with one type of hero property, I'd say he was more Fantastic Four's.

He did battle Spider-Man a few times after his first set of battles against him, 1963 - 1964, but his meetings afterwards with Spidey was sparse, compared to his battlings, by himself or with the Frightful Four, against the Fantastic Four, the Incredible Hulk, and Nova.

The other Marvel books took him because he was one of the best villains.

[Mister Mets]

Back when Sandman "reformed", 1982-ish, he was more of a Marvel bad guy, or if he was pegged with one type of hero property, I'd say he was more Fantastic Four's.

He did battle Spider-Man a few times after his first set of battles against him, 1963 - 1964, but his meetings afterwards with Spidey was sparse, compared to his battlings, by himself or with the Frightful Four, against the Fantastic Four, the Incredible Hulk, and Nova.

It's complicated.

He disappeared as a Spider-Man foe from Amazing Spider-Man #19 on, tackling the Fantastic Four a lot (often but not always as a member of the Frightful Four) and the Hulk.

He didn't really fight Spider-Man again until Marvel Team Up #1-2. But then they had several more encounters (Marvel Team Up #39-40, Amazing Spider-Man #154, Peter Parker the Spectacular Spider-Man #42, Marvel Team Up #99, Amazing Spider-Man #214-218) so he was back to being a regular Spider-Man foe by the time he had his redemption arc in Marvel Two in One.

Various untold tales retconned away the idea from Marvel Team Up #1 that Sandman only fought Spider-Man once or twice before primarily becoming a Fantastic Four enemy.

[616MarvelYear is LeapYear]

I enjoyed him as a hero it was an interesting twist on his character. They could have gotten a lot more mileage out of his new status quo than they did.

Sandman being turned back into a villain was even more of a travesty than Otto reverting to Doc Ock. The reason was stupid and his reversal served no interesting storyline purpose as he's been a non-entity ever since.

I loved the character befriending and working for the Silver Sable character.

[Alan2099]

Never seen it work well.

I've seen them try it with Storm Shadow, Venom, magneto, Dr. Doom, juggernaut, Sabertooth… etc. and all they do is take an awesome villain that USED to be an epic force of nature that had to be overcome... and turn them into an underdog who now gets nerfed to be a part of a team... or need new threats that make the underdog.

Then they just create a cheap ripoff that's never as cool to take fill that 'villain gap' that they vacated.

A redemption story sounds like a good idea... but in the grand scheme, it's just bad for the character/franchise.

Add in the fact that the villains BELONG in jail... and to use them they have to cheat justice somehow. They never actually answer for their crimes.

Well, there was always Hawkeye, Quicksilver, and the Scarlet Witch.

I prefer Sandman as a villain. I don't think anything good was ever done with him as a hero. Now there were some good stories about him being on the path to redemption, but once he was a card-carrying good guy... nothing.

I don't think they way they turned him back into a villain was the way to go about it either though. I think it would have worked a lot better if he had just fallen back on hard times, didn't have anywhere to go, and robbing banks or hiring on to a supervillain team was the only way he could think of to make a living.

[Hypestyle]

not interested in Sandman as a hero at this point.