HoX: Should the crew of the Orchis Forge be considered 'Innocent Civilians'?

[Arsenal]

Every human on the Orchis Forge station is an enemy combatant, but still subject to rules of war, etc.

The security personnel are better armed, but the civilians are the ordnance, logistics, HQ, comms, kitchen, motor pool, etc. who would form an armed resistance if attacked and who are also part of the 'war machine' by equipping the security and also in their building anti-mutant weaponry. The defined scope of the mutants' mission is to stop the war effort of the humans with only as much bloodshed as necessary. Whoever is resisting the raid should stop if they want to not die; whoever does not want to die can disarm and be taken prisoner.

The mutants have the upper hand here, but are obligated to fight only hard enough to make the humans realize this imbalance of strength. (No Sabretooth extra-butchery)

Nightcrawler is doing it well, neutralizing threats and ending active resistance. Wolverine is killing hopefully only those he 'needs' to, meaning those who insist on staying between him and the locks. Monet fights in defense of Jean and her own life; even if it were lab coat people swarming her, she can fight them (they're fighting her, after all).

I like this answer.

As for the Wolverine thing, I think it's pretty important to note that he was intentionally placed in the area closest to the Security Hub. So not only is he likely to face the greatest amount of resistance (As demonstrated by Nightcrawler facing 2 guys while Logan has to fight his way through a hallway full) but he's likely keeping a good chunk of the station's security busy which makes the rest of the team's job that much easier.

[Tycon]

evil science lady’s husband: *kills himself to blow up the x-men*

x-men: *two of them die, they quickly mourn and move on*

evil science lady: *very mad that her husband is dead and goes on a rampage to kill the rest of the muties*

yeah i think Orchis is very very evil and anyone involved should either be tried as a war criminal or k worded.

[HomoSuperior]

evil science lady’s husband: *kills himself to blow up the x-men*

x-men: *two of them die, they quickly mourn and move on*

evil science lady: *very mad that her husband is dead and goes on a rampage to kill the rest of the muties*

yeah i think Orchis is very very evil and anyone involved should either be tried as a war criminal or k worded.

You illustrate a good point. Eye for an eye, and all that. Plenty of evidence within the story that says Dr. Gregor is NOT well-adjusted. She was married to someone who, literally before dying, reminded her she deprived him of kids. So what was her fear of the future about anyway? More specifically, how imminent was her perception of the mutant threat and whose future was she protecting? She’s probably a sociopath enacting a demagogue’s agenda.

I wonder if Hickman will put a twist on that and attribute the agenda not to a political leader, but to mob hysteria, given form through tech (e.g., social media). He’s kind of laid out Orchis Forge was an “event response” triggered after thresholds were reached. Imagine a committee meeting to define ‘threshold criteria.’ That’s different than Senator Kelly rallying the mobs.

Combined with compartmentalization, “thresholds” is another good way of telling a story about how tech enables the worst in humanity by trading plausible deniability for atrocity. Bravo Mr. Hickman.

[jwatson]

No. If you are on a spaceship creating a "Death god" to be used against innocent children and unborn babies i can't really say your innocent. I mean at least with abortions the person has a choice but they are literally trying to wipe out a group of people because their scared but if mutants returned the favor because they were scared, would their be understanding?

[Tycon]

You illustrate a good point. Eye for an eye, and all that. Plenty of evidence within the story that says Dr. Gregor is NOT well-adjusted. She was married to someone who, literally before dying, reminded her she deprived him of kids. So what was her fear of the future about anyway? More specifically, how imminent was her perception of the mutant threat and whose future was she protecting? She’s probably a sociopath enacting a demagogue’s agenda.

I wonder if Hickman will put a twist on that and attribute the agenda not to a political leader, but to mob hysteria, given form through tech (e.g., social media). He’s kind of laid out Orchis Forge was an “event response” triggered after thresholds were reached. Imagine a committee meeting to define ‘threshold criteria.’ That’s different than Senator Kelly rallying the mobs.

Combined with compartmentalization, “thresholds” is another good way of telling a story about how tech enables the worst in humanity. Bravo Mr. Hickman.

Exaaaaactly. Gregor, despite showing all human emotion possible, wasn’t someone we should empathize with AND support or even hold her in any likable position. I mean, yes we can feel bad for her but her fear has led to her planning the extinction of an entire race. The next time we see the X-Men on the station, Scott is cradling one of his best friends and Raven is putting a tarp over Paige’s body, more mutant pain and angst over an irrational fear of “replacement” (hmm irrationality over an oppressed group becoming “superior” where have i heard that). They had more of a reason than anyone on that space station to just go full on X-Force and wipe everyone out yet they pushed that aside to finish the mission. Meanwhile, Gregor’s unnecessary loss leads her to screw over her mission and awaken Mother Mold even if it could’ve lead to catastrophe.

[Chris0013]

So if humans cannot build Sentinels to protect themselves from mutant aggression then how do you suggest they defend themselves? Unless some believe that there is no mutant aggression against humans, that all mutants are peaceful loving people who just want harmony ( they are not, mutants can be every bit as bigoted, as murderous and as evil as any human); only difference is they have a far greater capacity to do harm by virtue of their powers. Average humans don't have access to Sentinels or nanites but the average mutant could probably incinerate or shut off the mind of a human easily. Seems like some just want humans to lay down and accept extinction. Also if the humans decide to do a retaliatory attack on Krakoa for the attack on Orchis will that be justified? And if non X-men mutants are killed in said attack are they deemed enemy combatants for associating with mutant terrorists? Will they be seen as providing aid and support to the X-men in terrorist acts against foreign governments? It goes both ways.

Actively recruit and create their own superhumans, piloted sentinels either like Sentinel Squat O.N.E. or Iron Man sized suits. Put people in there who have been psychologically screened to ensure they are not racists and out there to "kill filthy muties". People who on the ground can make the snap judgement that the criminals are criminals to be taken down or out depending on situation and the good guys are good guys....and who will protect bystanders.

I don't think anyone is saying the government should refuse to live up to its responsibility to deal with superhuman criminals...no matter the source of their power. But a department whose responsibility is "to deal with the mutant problem"...and their solution is genocide of a species should not exist.

[Snoop Dogg]

If Orchis just chose to build a giant Ultron-1 in space instead, there would be no issue. Heck, I bet the X-Men would help them finish it. All shall serve Ultron. Ultron is.

[xhx23x]

The only good flatscan is a dead one.

Or Stevie Hunter.

[nx01a]

The only good flatscan is a dead one.

Or Stevie Hunter.

The flatscans should be made to behave by their mutant masters... but treated fairly.

[Wild Fang X]

Those soldiers on the ORCHIS Forge were enemy combatants that were likely ordered to kill the X-Men on sight. Any of those soldiers that were on that vessel knew exactly what they were getting themselves into and their fate was their responsibility, no one else's. A scene from Clerks perfectly explains this at 2:06.

[chaosfist]

The flatscans should be made to behave by their mutant masters... but treated fairly.

So like Israel and the Palestinians huh?

[Shreene]

The flatscans should be made to behave by their mutant masters... but treated fairly.

You say that as if Baseline Humans can't defend themselves if need be.

[Steroid]

If they are on the Forge creating a weapon to exterminate an entire group then no I don't consider them innocent civilians. Simply put they are all acceptable losses.

[HeartofTheStoriesWeTell]

When did anyone in orchis forge say anything about genocide?

Are we even reading the same story...

[Huntsman Spider]

When did anyone in orchis forge say anything about genocide?

Are we even reading the same story...

They didn't have to say the word "genocide" for genocide to be the end goal. The only way to stop another race/species (for the purposes of this argument) from overtaking one's own in terms of population numbers is to control that other race's/species' ability to reproduce itself. Since humans have nothing that can "persuade" mutants not to reproduce, especially given that the X-gene is a latent mutagenic factor that has its external manifestation in puberty or adolescence and therefore can manifest in anyone, the only way they can control the mutant population is through artificial suppressants and/or outright violent repression, the latter of which is embodied and represented by the Sentinels. In-universe history has shown again and again that the only reason Sentinels are ever created is to be a tool for violent human suppression and/or termination of mutant lives. That's why the word genocide is being used, as it is the endgame of anyone building mechanisms to forcibly suppress another race/species; eventually, suppression will not be enough to satisfy their bigotry and complete extermination will become "necessary."