*walks into thread, turns around, walks right back out*
Goodnight Everybody!
*walks into thread, turns around, walks right back out*
Goodnight Everybody!
Ichigo: What even *are* you?!
Kenpachi: Some say my mother was a train. Some say that I'm a rejected Godzilla monster too strong for the series canon. But everyone says: I'M THE KEEEEENPACHIIIIII!!!!
Marvel has an open forum set up for one of their head honchos ( Brevroot ) answering fans' questions . That's without going to individual writers for individual stories going to Twitter and whatnot to give clear cut answers to what they think , the characters and stories they wrote mean. We just had a thread recently where the guy spent a lot of time posting links to statements by Jurgens and Ross , that are as clear cut as you can get , from a guidebook even , on marvel and dc characters
Please do tell me how much of these writers' and editors' input we should consider ?
Or does DBZ receive a special exemption from this Rumbles rule ? Do wikis ( edited by writers who actually wrote the stories , to use another example , Ross' JLA wiki ) now count for other characters as well?
Fan fiction based on Akira's drawings certainly qualifies as wiki entryThat explains their universe like you wanted. You saying it looks like a wiki entry won't change that fact.
Moreover , as noted , there's a mod ruling on DB canon which doesn't include this .
The one map that Akira has drawn certainly makes it look like a snow globeIt's a barrier, not a snow globe.
citation?More like a poor attempt by you to low balling a feat. It's a barrier surrounding an ever expanding universe(meaning the barrier would increase in size as well).
Even if it's an expanding universe , it makes no difference . Barriers a barrier . Stuff bounces off barriers .It's not a physical glass barrier.
So?They shook their galaxy, as has been explained, and destroyed several planets all from the first impact of their firsts connecting.
Question : where did the shockwave come from ? Unless it's the initial shockwave bouncing back from the barrier ?Then a shockwave came after, completely covered the universe and outside of it while destroying planets. Then the energy clash covered the universe and was about to blow it up.
This ultimately arises from your citation from a non canon ( for Rumbles purposes at least) , source that the universe is surrounded by a strange barrier that and I quoteHow many times does this have to be explained? It's right from the clip yet you're trying to make it sound like it's some sort of hollow ball and that the barriers are physical in nature, holding everything within tightly and that they almost destroyed the universe just by shaking it, which is somehow easy because they have a barrier around them?
you are now trying to claim that something that is "engraved with a design" is not physical in nature . At least stay consistent to your non canon sources/speculationis hermetically sealed by a barrier that is engraved with a strange design.
That's a lot of trouble to say "shockwave !" " energy!" Whatever without any actual universe busting happening in the universe with physical barriers that allows shockwaves to bounce off them ( basic physics )Now you're purposefully misinterpreting information and feats. It wasn't the shockwave that almost destroyed the universe, it was the energy itself. The shockwave was disintegrating planets and warping space.
YesHave you ever even seen the scenes that are being refereed to here?
Most of what you quoted was dire speculation that ended with the wiki guy admitting " yes at no point did the dude actually say galaxies , plural .So you're just going to ignore most of what i said and pick out bits and pieces,
If it was never clear then stop using it . Dozens of feats are thrown out on Rumbles for not being " clear ". We don't need unclear translated fan fiction to add to that listwhile ignoring the point on Japanese translations.
But never " galaxies" . Shame .The point was that it was never clear, and that it went my several different names in the past.
So you are guessing then? Guesses are not valid on RumblesBut you are trying to say it is one thing based on...nothing at all except for a single translation that could be taken in 2 different ways due to it being Japanese and despite it being refereed to a singular plural would contradict what was said in canon.
So for the last time , did the dude at any point say " galaxies", plural ? If not , then that's that
Despite said parts being explicitly referred to as North Galaxy etc?It means that there is 4 parts of the universe, not 4 galaxies.
A Galaxy does not contain nebulae that have their own solar systems in real life . That's one of the essential differences between the two . A nebula does not have solar systems within itself . A Galaxy has solar systems , nebulae ( but not with solar systems within them ) , black holes everythingThat's generally what a galaxy is yes. A thing that has a bunch of solar systems in it.
Thus , we have established that on this front at least , DB universe is nothing like our universe .
So yes or no, DB universe is a universe with physical barriers and nebulae that contain star systems within them, and hence radically different from our of indeed most other fictional universes like marvel and dc , yes or no ?
This is a physical impossibility in our universe , yes or no?Except the Earth's Solar System is described as being located in one of these "innumerable nebulae".
Uh huhSo it's part of something in a galaxy,
Citation for this outside of desperate speculation about translations ?and there are a bunch of galaxies that King Kai looks over. That was the point.
Surely you have ONE citation at least that is better than " areas " and " I really want it to be a plural"?
" Guidebooks totally don't count for marvel/ DC . Guidebooks totally count for this one fandom I reaaaaly like "It's not a "wiki", it's a translation of the official guidebooks that explains the DB universe.
Hey man don't blame me . Blame the mod ruling . I'm just following rules . And basic Rumbles rules that state " ...and guidebooks are meaningless"Doesn't matter if you want to look down on it in a condescending matter just because you don't like the information it presents.
So the barrier does not exist then ? Or wait those "engravings" are floating on thin air ? I'm confused ....Except it's nothing like that at all, as was already described. Think; if it has a physical boundry then Champa and Vados would not have been able to get into the universe.
This despite teleportation being an actual thing in said universeWhile Beerus and Whis would never have been able to leave and go into the kaioshin realm and go back in.
...?The parts of the universe that the kais have been looking after have never been refereed to as single galaxies in the manga, which
North Galaxy ?
How you try . How you guessis why the Daizenshuu may very well mean "galaxies", and not galaxy, due to the kai's referring them as area's and never as a single galaxy.
You've been here long enough to know guessing isn't going to cut it when we have at least one reference to North Galaxy , singular in your own post
Why would they get Alex Ross to draw something and not give his info ?This logic is poor. The drawings are by Akira, why would they have him make drawings and not get the info?
Actually wait ,dude pretty clearly gave his info with his name on the title of said guidebook
You , on the other hand are guessing again . It's hilarious because even the guidebook you are using does not have the name of the author in the front cover as opposed to most marvel / DC guidebooks
I'm reading them and finding a strange lack of objectivity in your postsAnd there is no feat to be explained. This is the size of the DB universe being explained, not a characters feat. Actually read the posts you are trying to reply too.
Last edited by The Dork Knight; 11-24-2015 at 01:25 AM.
Not that I want to get into it all that much because, as I will reiterate at every given opportunity, the whole "reverse entropy waves from punches," that Bills and Goku did was completely and utterly stupid and doesn't make any sense because it's impossible to quantify.
But, a few points;
Technically, one could argue that our universe in the real world is of a similar construction. The universe has finite dimensions (maybe) so it has an edge (maybe) yet it is nigh-on infinite in size and expanding over time into ... well, not into anything. There's physics concepts here that are a bit mental but, suffice to say, I see nothing wrong with the notion that a fictional universe could have "finite dimensions within a barrier," but also be "functionally endless,"
Again, as I pointed out in the thread where it first came up around here, it doesn't really matter how large the universe was because the waves made by Bills and Goku /gained energy over time/ instead of doing the thing every single shockwave in the real world and in DBZ prior to this point did, that is dissipate into nothingness eventually. These waves were specifically noted as doing the opposite.3. Hermetically sealed things could shake with well less than universe busting force . If it's a thing with a barrier that considerably lessens the implication of the feat
For example a hollow ball can be shaken with far less than the force required to bust it , and the effect felt outside the ball too
So, technically, Goku and Bills could have high fived at normal baseline human strength and, assuming even the tiniest magical reverse-entropy wave was created, that wave would eventually destroy a universe of any size because it would never stop growing in power until everything was destroyed.
Reverse entropy is stupid. Like, really stupid. I'm genuinely angry at DBS for having this bollocks in there because it makes Goku and Bills' strength impossible to quantify.
But yeah, if anything, the feat in question shows that the barrier was permeable by the wave because it reached the world of the Kais which is outside the confines of the normal DBS universe. Had the waves been unable to escape the normal universe, Goku and Bills would have, eventually, caused the death of everything in their universe as their perpetually growing wavefront bounced around the universe until everything was destroyed.
Like, I said, reverse entropy is stupid. Just utterly stupid.
This is nitpicking semantics. Yes, that is not how nebulae work but when the franchise specifies what it means when it says "nebulae," it feel disingenuous to ignore that designation because it's re-appropriating real world terms.4. Definitions for nebulae that are nothing like real life nebulae do not for a convincing " real life like universe" argument make
In short, DBS is stupid. Bills and Goku can break entropy by hitting each other.
...
And then magically not break entropy by doing the exact same thing but "matching the force, speed and the angle," perfectly - which shouldn't have done anything based on basic elementary physics.
God, I straight up rage quit DBS when that happened because it's just... it's too far.
This series makes me want to angrily chain smoke. >
Regarding the one image we have of the universe, I'm pretty sure that one was a metaphor rather than a literal depiction of the universe since it has stuff like Kaiou-sama's building-planet and Enma-daiou's building-sized building being visible against the million kilometer long Snake Way, which in turn is a substantial fraction of the length of the universe that we know contains multiple star systems many lightyear apart at the minimum.
Also, I'm wondering whether using ki against the living embodiment of Life Energy would really be a viable way of harming it rather than feeding it.
The problem with that Is how the kaioshin realm is depicted in the map . If it's an expanding universe like ours( the one thing we DO know about our universe ) then what does it mean for the kaoishin realm ?
Does it get absorbed into the ever expanding universe ? Does it stay a fixed distance away ? What holds it in place ? Gravity ? How does that even work for an ever expanding universe ? Does it expand too?
And finally a universe with an expanding physical barrier , ie, ever increasing mass too? How does that work? How many laws of physics does that break?
Well that could just be the waves seeping through . Like again in something like an auditorium . Sound is meant to be concentrated inside but some of it seeps through anywayAgain, as I pointed out in the thread where it first came up around here, it doesn't really matter how large the universe was because the waves made by Bills and Goku /gained energy over time/ instead of doing the thing every single shockwave in the real world and in DBZ prior to this point did, that is dissipate into nothingness eventually. These waves were specifically noted as doing the opposite.
So, technically, Goku and Bills could have high fived at normal baseline human strength and, assuming even the tiniest magical reverse-entropy wave was created, that wave would eventually destroy a universe of any size because it would never stop growing in power until everything was destroyed.
Reverse entropy is stupid. Like, really stupid. I'm genuinely angry at DBS for having this bollocks in there because it makes Goku and Bills' strength impossible to quantify.
But yeah, if anything, the feat in question shows that the barrier was permeable by the wave because it reached the world of the Kais which is outside the confines of the normal DBS universe.
But they (Goku and Beerus) stopped . As for the growing wave front thing from what I understand they were cancelling out the overall power of the thing . Which should still have meant largest at the epicentre and less as you go away from it ....but considering the whole thing as an eye of the storm kinda deal , it did have a fixed amount of energy ,greater than what was needed to bust that particular universe , so the shockwaves just ran out of juice after getting seemingly stronger and bouncing back and forthHad the waves been unable to escape the normal universe, Goku and Bills would have, eventually, caused the death of everything in their universe as their perpetually growing wavefront bounced around the universe until everything was destroyed.
Like, I said, reverse entropy is stupid. Just utterly stupid.
Welp that wasn't expressed very well. I'll try another shot at it later .
By that definition of nit picking , we would end up with every comic book black hole feat counting within the definition of said comic :/This is nitpicking semantics. Yes, that is not how nebulae work but when the franchise specifies what it means when it says "nebulae," it feel disingenuous to ignore that designation because it's re-appropriating real world terms.
In short, DBS is stupid. Bills and Goku can break entropy by hitting each other.
...
And then magically not break entropy by doing the exact same thing but "matching the force, speed and the angle," perfectly - which shouldn't have done anything based on basic elementary physics.
God, I straight up rage quit DBS when that happened because it's just... it's too far.
This series makes me want to angrily chain smoke. >
Last edited by The Dork Knight; 11-24-2015 at 07:26 AM.
Eh, that's not really a problem in terms of our discussion.
If it is expanding or whatever, I have no problem with the Realm of the Kais just constantly being outside of the universe irrespective of it's size.
Like, I said, I'm not pretending that the cosmology of DBZ really makes any sense, I was more pointing out that it was perfectly possible for the DBZ universe to be nigh-on infinite in dimensions and still be contained with the barrier.
That... that doesn't help with the stupidness of it.Well that could just be the waves seeping through . Like again in something like an auditorium . Sound is meant to be concentrated inside but some of it seeps through anyway
The fact of the matter is Bills and Goku can make reverse entropy shockwaves that can transcend the confines of the universe.
They specifically said that the waves would just grow stronger. I mean, I'm fully on board with the notion that Toriyama just didn't think about what that concept meant and threw it in for fun but, technically speaking, if there were no way for waves to escape the universe - which we see with the effects reaching the land of the kais - then the first punch would have, eventually, destroyed everything in the DBZ universe.But they (Goku and Beerus) stopped . As for the growing wave front thing from what I understand they were cancelling out the overall power of the thing . Which should still have meant largest at the epicentre and less as you go away from it ....but considering the whole thing as an eye of the storm kinda deal , it did have a fixed amount of energy ,greater than what was needed to bust that particular universe , so the shockwaves just ran out of juice after getting seemingly stronger and bouncing back and forth
Welp that wasn't expressed very well. I'll try another shot at it later .
Just because if something continues to gather energy and grow stronger, it can never stop or slow down or dissipate because it's constantly becoming more powerful.
Not really.By that definition of nit picking , we would end up with every comic book black hole feat counting within the definition of said comic :/
Most comics and stuff say "black hole" and they assume the reader knows roughly what a black hole is. They don't specify that "black hole" means like... a cheese sandwich or whatever and then have someone being all like "He ate a black hole," while showing Vegeta eating a sandwich.
DBZ says "'Nebulae' are enormous collections of stars" to which we say "No they aren't," and they say "We're using the word to describe something else than what you think. Use that terminology from here,"
So, yeah, it's just semantics and arguing that it somehow undermines the franchise is a bit reductive.
Gonna concur here, discussing feats is ok, but let's not descent into franchise bashing here.
Welp sorry if that came across as me somehow bashing the franchise . That wasn't my intention
Again, this is directed to Nik
1. It still doesn't explain where all the extra mass for the ever expanding physical barrier comes from, if indeed it is expanding
2. If they specifically said the waves would keep getting stronger and stronger without limits , that would now mean Goku and Beerus have infinite energy o_0 and Goku somehow somewhat less infinite energy than Beerus
3. That wasn't really the point I was making with regards to comic book black holes but ok let's drop that anyway . Said nebulae can still contain hundreds of stars / star systems and be nothing more than a star cluster really , which ultimately makes far more sense if they are part of a galaxy like North Galaxy
The only one guessing here is you. You're basically claiming to know more about Japanese translations, than one of the guys I was quoting who actually could translate it. It was never once refereed to having only 4 galaxies in the manga. That's a fact, not an opinion. It was consistently referred to as areas, or something else. Each kai looks after a fourth of the galaxy. The translations in the guidebooks are never 100% clear on whether they mean galaxy or galaxies, but the manga refers to them as "areas".
But you like to ignore that in order to try and low ball the feat as much as you can.
Akira partakes in the Daizenshuu. He is involved in interviews and he creates the drawings, such as the maps and the like. It's the Daizenshuu and Akira is always referenced in the book itself. The site I posted just has the translations of the contents.It's hilarious because even the guidebook you are using does not have the name of the author in the front cover as opposed to most marvel / DC guidebooks
Why do people insinuating that we are talking about the friggin punch? We are talking about the beam clash.
Anyway, thanks for replying to the Dorkster. Pretty much said everything I was going to say so now I don't have to worry about making a long ass reply :P.
Said ruling was made long before Super was a thing. That was in reference to character feats, not how their universe looks and acts. What, because you think the DB universe has 4 small galaxies, that means that any other source material should be disregarded and we should just follow what you believe? For it sure as hell was never stated in the manga that there were only 4 galaxies, so you could only possibly mean to force how you (wrongfully) believe the size of the DB universe is on on forum.
Doesn't work that way Dork.
The universe thing has already been handled in Super, anyway, so this whole discussion about sources is kind of off. Jaco confirmed that there are a lot of galaxies, debunking the "4" thing.
Use the Mass times Acceleration, Luke.
Last edited by The Drunkard Kid; 11-24-2015 at 10:26 AM.