Fights that you hated that Spider Man won?

[Vegeta]

Spider-Man did not beat Juggernaut 1-on-1. At best he held his own. Absorbing Man and Titania both have a chronic loser syndrome with having them lose fights they should win by all accounts. No matter how you slice it, it is illogical for Spider-Man, a guy who regularly has to dodge bullets because he could get injured, to fight with people who are heralds of Galactus. It just doesn't make any sense.

A single character "holding his own" against Juggernaut is still a pretty big feat. 80's Spider-Man was also facing down villains such as Mr. Hyde and the Wrecker and his Wrecking Crew, characters originally designed to give Thor a bad day. Spider-Man has also held his own against a team of X-Men on a few occasions and a Spider-Man robot duplicate created by Kang trounced the Avengers (Cap, Thor, Giant Man And Wasp) only for the real Spider-Man to show up and save the day. Maybe you are just seriously underestimating the ol' Webhead?

And if I remember correctly, wasn't the Spider-Man/ Firelord fight followed up on in an old Avengers comic? that may have shed some light on the issue.

[JTHM]

A single character "holding his own" against Juggernaut is still a pretty big feat. 80's Spider-Man was also facing down villains such as Mr. Hyde and the Wrecker and his Wrecking Crew, characters originally designed to give Thor a bad day. Spider-Man has also held his own against a team of X-Men on a few occasions and a Spider-Man robot duplicate created by Kang trounced the Avengers (Cap, Thor, Giant Man And Wasp) only for the real Spider-Man to show up and save the day. Maybe you are just seriously underestimating the ol' Webhead?

Not in the slightest. Its just that writers in the bad old days (and some in modern times) don't grasp at the internal consistency of these characters. Both Mr. Hyde and The Wrecking Crew had a similar case compared to Absorbing Man and Titania. Especially Absorbing Man, who is another character that should beat Spider-Man by staring at him more or less. The thing is not just that Spider-Man fights against these guys and wins, because it would be one thing if he actually grew stronger with time and everything around him scaled up adequately, but that isn't the case. Sure, Spider-Man fights people that gives Thor a bad day, but then he goes back to his own book and his enemies are supervillains, sure, but not the strongest supervillains around.

For example, those instances you mention of Spider-Man beating up a team of X-Men (An instance rumored to be an meta vendetta to the X-Men at the time, but let's not get into that anyway because its irrelevant) and more importantly, against the Avengers, are clear signs of that. You want to tell me that Spider-Man, who gets hurt by the Green Goblin's pumpkin bombs and has to sweat blood to lift up a building, could even remotely injury Thor, who breaks small planets? Not in a million years.

And look, I am not even someone who is crazy about this stuff. Like, these scales are made to be broken anyway. David beating Goliath is more interesting than Goliath flattening David. But when it's David armwrestling Goliath, then it's silly. That's my main gripe with these stories showing Spider-Man in a league that is clearly not his own. It's fine if he beats Juggernaut through smarts. Or if he manages to stop two of the Phoenix Five by pitting them against each other. Or even if he makes a suit that lets him fight harder than he usually would. All of those things play into the narrative strength of the character (And not, before you say it. "Evading and waiting for an opportunity" does not count. Because that's still a physical contest where he outclasses his opponent) but a Spider-Man robot beating up the Avengers only for Spider-Man to appear and beat it up is just silly, and it is a disservice to the other characters involved. That's also another one of my gripes, when characters are made to look bad in these situations for no reason other than make Spider-Man look cooler.

[Ozymandias]

At the end of the day, Spider-Man versus Firelord is the single best story Firelord has ever been part of.

Admittedly, this character's history is neither long nor fortuitous, and yet, the very next issues he appears on (in The Avengers) are better. And while on the subject, it's funny how Stern brushes off Firelord's defeat with an ellipsis that directs the reader to a three punch/kick combo to the face, while in the same issue Hercules (who's in his league) gives him a good one and produces no such effect. Remember how on ASM #14, the Hulk didn't even budge at Spidey's best shot? Well, that's the difference between Ditko and DeFalco. The former would never have dreamed of a much more powerful opponent getting weak, because of a prolonged fight; not any more than Spider-Man himself, at least.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

But when it's David armwrestling Goliath, then it's silly.

Which is why it's a good thing that doesn't happen between Spider-Man and Firelord anyway. Spider-Man did not armwrestle Firelord, not even metaphorically.

For example, those instances you mention of Spider-Man beating up a team of X-Men (An instance rumored to be an meta vendetta to the X-Men at the time, but let's not get into that anyway because its irrelevant)

There was no meta-vendetta between Spider-Man and the X-Men in the '80s. You must be confusing it with the real actual legit one that happened between X-Men and Fantastic Four.

Chris Claremont and John Byrne were collaborators on this epic run on Uncanny X-Men with Byrne as artist(and sometimes co-plotter) and Claremont as overall lead writer. The two of them butted heads all the time during that run, with Byrne openly combating and expressing dislike for Claremont's choices, and Claremont expressing outrage at Byrne undermining his scripts without his say-so (for instance as a penciller, Byrne would refuse to draw panels and actions he disliked, and skipped whole scenes Claremont wrote...and this is why Claremont started writing in big panels and overly verbose explanations for which he has become proverbial). Then John Byrne left the X-Men and became lead writer and artist on a classic run of Fantastic Four, and the two of them continued to undermine each other. So for instance, Claremont had Doctor Doom show up in an X-Men issue, Byrne said that Doom was a robot and the real Doom destroys that robot for making him look bad with the X-Men. Claremont was starting his long gestating retcon of Magneto's origins, John Byrne had Doom call Magneto a freak (no really) and then in a crossover tie-in for Acts of Vengeance, without telling Claremont or anyone, had Magneto say in thought bubbles that he was faking his backstory. (Calling this a vendetta is a misnomer because it's not like both sides are equal here...John Byrne was disproportionately petty and underhanded here, and it's one of the reasons he's not very popular these days)

Jim Shooter was Editor-In-Chief of Marvel and he wrote Secret Wars 1984 and the reason he often gave for why the EIC wrote this title (well quite aside from the fact that Shooter had a decent reputation as a comics' writer even then) was because of the grudges different writers had against each other. He cited the Claremont-Byrne feud and he felt that as EIC he alone could be counted to be fair to different characters and different creative runs and give as many characters as possible spotlight and moments to shine. Claremont had no issues at all about Spider-Man beating up the X-Men.

And while on the subject, it's funny how Stern brushes off Firelord's defeat with an ellipsis that directs the reader to a three punch/kick combo to the face, while in the same issue Hercules (who's in his league) gives him a good one and produces no such effect.

Roger Stern was always a proponent of Spider-Man as having great super-strength. When he began his run on ASM, he was following a bunch of writers (Conway to some extent, but Wein moreso, and Wolfman most egregiously) who had downplayed Spider-Man's great strength and toughness. In fact Wolfman in interviews later claimed that Spider-Man had no super-strength (and this from a self-proclaimed Ditko enthusiast). So you can imagine the context and how bad things were. Roger Stern when he started his run felt that he had to remind everyone of what a big deal Spider-Man actually is, and that's why his entire run often pit Spider-Man with X-Men, Avengers, and Fantastic Four enemies you know -- Foolkiller, Juggernaut, Mr. Hyde, The Mad Thinker, the Wrecking Crew (people forget the A-Story of "The Kid Who Collected Spider-Man"). Stern also emphasized that Spider-Man enemies like the Green Goblin and the Vulture had super-strength. Hobgoblin's entire quest was all about the fact that Norman Osborn's serum gave him super-strength and he wanted to recreate the formula and get that. The Vulture's flying harness was explicitly identified as having giving him super-strength.

So Spider-Man v. Firelord makes sense in that context. Stern always said that he loved Defalco's run and is a real-life friend of his. And he always identified that story as among his favorites of Defalco's run. Likewise Firelord is a c-list villain. Among the Heralds of Galactus...Terrax is the big deal after Silver Surfer defected, not Firelord. Stern didn't have any skin in the game about feeling offended that Spider-Man jobbed a villain, nor did anyone else. Firelord has no fans. Nobody is gonna care a great deal about it.

[Ozymandias]

Roger Stern was always a proponent of Spider-Man as having great super-strength. When he began his run on ASM, he was following a bunch of writers (Conway to some extent, but Wein moreso, and Wolfman most egregiously) who had downplayed Spider-Man's great strength and toughness. In fact Wolfman in interviews later claimed that Spider-Man had no super-strength (and this from a self-proclaimed Ditko enthusiast). So you can imagine the context and how bad things were. Roger Stern when he started his run felt that he had to remind everyone of what a big deal Spider-Man actually is, and that's why his entire run often pit Spider-Man with X-Men, Avengers, and Fantastic Four enemies you know -- Foolkiller, Juggernaut, Mr. Hyde, The Mad Thinker, the Wrecking Crew (people forget the A-Story of "The Kid Who Collected Spider-Man"). Stern also emphasized that Spider-Man enemies like the Green Goblin and the Vulture had super-strength. Hobgoblin's entire quest was all about the fact that Norman Osborn's serum gave him super-strength and he wanted to recreate the formula and get that. The Vulture's flying harness was explicitly identified as having giving him super-strength.

So Spider-Man v. Firelord makes sense in that context. Stern always said that he loved Defalco's run and is a real-life friend of his. And he always identified that story as among his favorites of Defalco's run. Likewise Firelord is a c-list villain. Among the Heralds of Galactus...Terrax is the big deal after Silver Surfer defected, not Firelord. Stern didn't have any skin in the game about feeling offended that Spider-Man jobbed a villain, nor did anyone else. Firelord has no fans. Nobody is gonna care a great deal about it.

There's super-strength and super-strength, and despite Firelord's following, he brought Thor to a stalemate (Thor's own sentiments on the fight in #306). For comparison, look at Spider-Man in MTU #70. He looked like a ragged doll at Thor's side, and not because Claremont was downplaying him, like the writers you mention.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

There's super-strength and super-strength, and despite Firelord's following, he brought Thor to a stalemate (Thor's own sentiments on the fight in #306). For comparison, look at Spider-Man in MTU #70. He looked like a ragged doll at Thor's side, and not because Claremont was downplaying him, like the writers you mention.

How does Spider-Man look at the end of the Firelord 2-Parter? He's tired, fatigued, and just continuing on adrenaline. So it's not different from what you claim about that MTU story.

Again from the way everyone talks about the story, people think Spider-Man KO'd Firelord in a single panel in the middle of an unrelated story. Firelord's fight was treated as a big deal and a very serious matter in the story itself.

And well before Firelord, Spider-Man fought and defeat Mr. Hyde who is a Thor-tier villain with super-strength. And well after that, Spider-Man fought Morlun who was described to be as strong as Thor.

The Odinson's strength itself has fluctuated writer to writer and from run to run, with different people downplaying his strengths for the sake of the story. Like Walt Simonson had Thor depowered and needing to wear a special armor and then had him pitted against Jormungandr at the end of his run, in an epic issue done entirely in splash pages (which inspired Jurgens doing the same thing with Superman and Doomsday).

The article of faith in any superhero story is that on a given day your main character and hero can go up against and stand up to any threat no matter the odds. And that's what the Firelord 2-parter was about. In that day, the Avengers weren't around and the FF weren't around and it fell on Spider-Man to rein in a childish and petty Herald of Galactus and he fought on and never quit or gave up.

[Ozymandias]

The article of faith in any superhero story is that on a given day your main character and hero can go up against and stand up to any threat no matter the odds.

Are you invoking the suspension of disbelief amendment?

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Are you invoking the suspension of disbelief amendment?

I am invoking the presentation, intent, and overall effect of the story.

[Huntsman Spider]

On the subject of Spider-Man vs. Absorbing Man and Titania, Absorbing Man is like a good number of Spider-Man's rogues --- impressive powers that should make him a major threat, but paired with (or hobbled by) the mindset of a petty thug with no sense of creativity or ingenuity. As for Titania, Spider-Man outfought her by frustrating her attempts to hit him with superior speed and skill and undermining her psychologically with reminders of the weakling she used to be physically and still was emotionally and mentally. Hell, that's how Spider-Man beats just about all his foes --- he either takes advantage of their comparative lack of intelligence and creativity, or of their psychological and emotional frailty by insulting and taunting them nonstop while they're trying their damnedest to hurt him. In that light, him beating Absorbing Man and Titania isn't all that surprising or unexpectable.

[Ozymandias]

I am invoking the presentation, intent, and overall effect of the story.

Presentation was unconvincing, intent unclear and overall effect largely negative (open a poll if you want).

[Agent Z]

Firelord has no fans. Nobody is gonna care a great deal about it.

This is and always has been a poor excuse for lousy writing.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

...overall effect largely negative (open a poll if you want).

How exactly did Firelord versus Spider-man have a negative effect? It's considered a classic Spider-Man story.

And to the extent it had an influence of Spider-Man expanding the scope of stories available to him, it pointed the way towards Venom, towards the Captain Universe stories, towards Morlun all of which are highly regarded stories.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

This is and always has been a poor excuse for lousy writing.

Not sure what you are talking about. The Firelord 2-Parter doesn't qualify on account of the fact that it's a well written and well drawn comic.

[Ozymandias]

How exactly did Firelord versus Spider-man have a negative effect? It's considered a classic Spider-Man story.

And to the extent it had an influence of Spider-Man expanding the scope of stories available to him, it pointed the way towards Venom, towards the Captain Universe stories, towards Morlun all of which are highly regarded stories.

"It's considered" or "highly regarded" by whom? If you want to know how something stands up with the fan-base, start a poll. There's no other way. Trace back my posts, I've been talking all along as to how it's viewed by the readers here, don't introduce outside judges.

[Triniking1234]

I remember when Brian Corrin covered the Spidey vs. Firelord fight. He pointed at the time Marvel had established how OP the power cosmic Galactus gives his heralds is by highlighting some Silver Surfer stuff and even if Firelord has less cosmic power than the Surfer he was still on par with Thor, a person Spider-Man couldn't beat at the time.

Anyway my most hated fight is Spidey vs. Magneto from the comic strip. Spidey wins because he removed his web shooters. Good Grief.