Scott and Jean Appreciation Thread 2021

[Grinning Soul]

Tbh when I read that, I thought that was Hickman giving ideas to Feige or he´s already working with them to bring the X-men to the MCU.

But well inside story, I liked that response, tbh it´s a nice way of telling someone a complicated story in which he first was the more loyal to Charles dream, then grow dissapointed on him, try his own way for a while and now just being happy there seems to be unlimited potentatial for them now. imo he´s in the honeymoon phase but he´s saying he outgrew Charles dream and now he wants to fight for his own dreams too which is not really a bad thing to have.

Yeah, but that’s my point… the whole answer is given to us, the readers, not the guy that’s asking.

If you look at that answer through Feige’s eyes, it is kinda non-sensical.

So, in-story, why would Scott be answering like that? It’s either bad writing or he’s really not well. Considering the very first issue and that weird conversation with Lorna, I’d be inclined to say it’s the latter.

"It's something, isn't it? You know, I remember the day my son was born-- I remember the sheer terror or it. Not the idea of being a father -- my god, I loved that. I had waited my whoe life for that... It was thinking about what kind of world I had brought this precious, innocent child into. The horrors that my beautiful boy would have to endure simply because he was my son -- of my blood. Like me. And the worst part was I was right. He did suffer. He did... and there was nothing I could do to stop it. All I could do was endure it. Try not to surrender. Try not to give up. I'll tell you, it was a close thing-- surrendering to the world. Very close. But I held on. And, look, I have you, and your father, and my family... my boy. And we are home. Because I believed in a thing... and now it's real."

Not to get into the issue that he wasn't there when he son was born (and how he actually reacted when he found out), but the part I underlined? That's the definition of magical thinking!

"Magical thinking, the belief that one’s ideas, thoughts, actions, words, or use of symbols can influence the course of events in the material world. Magical thinking presumes a causal link between one’s inner, personal experience and the external physical world." (source: https://www.britannica.com/science/magical-thinking)

I’m telling you: my boy is not okay. :(

Yes but I think writers like Kelly Thompson could do something interesting with them, I liked how she tackled Jessica Jones relationship with her baby.

They certainly could. If they remembered that they talked and Jean apologised before the wedding and by the time of the wedding, they were already hugging and Rachel is calling her “mom” and Jean is okay with it.

I wish things had ended this way.

Well, I don’t, ‘cause I’m a fan of the couple. But I would have preferred if Scott and Madelyne (if had she had been a character that had nothing to do with Jean from the start) had split up amicably, because she would have understood that Scott had never been over Jean and as crazy as it was his first love was alive again and he couldn’t help wanting to be with her.

But… CC wrote Madelyine to substitute Jean… He was the one who trapped that character from its inception. Then he got tired of the character because found another way to write Phoenix again.

Like I promised:



NOTE: They weren't a couple back then. Jean is kissing him for old times' sake. It's a real good-bye, last chance, I-love-you-but-I-have-to-let-you-go, closure, kind of thing.

Agreed it´s nice to be able to do that, it´s part of why I like CBR so much.

I actually find it’s quite rare to be able to do it here… Sometimes it feels like I’m walking on a mine field.

But the good interactions make me really happy. :)

Oh Yes absolutely, back then he was on his "Join the evil brotherhood" but to be fair he said that to practically everybody he suspected of being a mutant, not just the X-men in particular. Even Elektro got the speech once XD.

Oh, yeah… I’m not judging. I was just saying that perception of Scott could have originated from that period. Because like we were talking about, when villains are saying stuff, they probably have an agenda, so it’s not necessarily true, or the impartial truth.

Yes it was a nice try but it was going to fail.

Yep. For a couple of reasons. :)

[Grinning Soul]

Oh, for sure you gotta make certain spoilers are okay.

Yeah. But he just forgets about it. It’s not on purpose. And, I mean, who never did that by mistake anyway, right?

I have and I loved the first and third seasons. I can't help but wonder if X-Men would be better suited as a live-action series instead of a film series.

So, yeah: Daredevil show often puts him in a position of being tempted - very tempted - to do the thing he knows is wrong (like killing). That’s good. And sometimes Matt crosses the line. But he’s not a cynical person, he's just being challenged when it comes to his morals. That conversation on the rooftop with Punisher is like a total nergasm for a fan like me who loves Mr. Murdock’s bright, conflicted, heroic heart! *hearteyes*

As for the X-Men in the MCU… I’ve talked to friends about it quite some times. My personal preference would be that they would cast great actors who are pretty unknown for all the roles, then get them on an exclusive contract of 10 years or something. So they can film a movie per year.

I know it’s crazy, but here’s the thing. When I heard Daredevil would get a series I was *ecstatic*. I never thought he was suited for the big screen (though, having a good film of his would make me happy too). But, on series, you have time to explore the character’s psyche and that’s the part of story that I absolutely love.

But the X-Men are big budget, flashy super heroes. I want to see those cool powers on the big screen too. The problem is that I also want to soap opera. The X-Men *do not* work without it. For instance, If they try to re-create the Dark Phoenix saga a third time without making us love Jean the way the characters around her love her, they will fail to replicate the power of the original narrative yet again.

It takes time to create those bonds and it gets particularly tricky when you have so many characters to juggle.

So, in an ideal world, I’d get those actors working pretty much non-stop (except for normal vacations, of course) and while a team of post-production worked on film 1, another team would be filming film 2.

That's a definite possibility, although I generally liked the stuff coming out up until AvX.

There were some ups and downs, but they were mostly okay indeed.

I've defended Scott when some have placed the blame on him for Jean's mistreatment, and you can see that Morrison gave Marvel an easy way to bring her back, but yeah there's no excuse for benching her for so long.

It’s good that you did, because it makes no sense to blame the character. Even if he had been the motivation for killing Jean off, it was the decision of the editors and writers. The poor character has nothing to do with it.

Hope was a wasted character, at least for where I thought they were going with her, and Teen Jean (along with the rest of the TD-O5) was an atrocious mistake.

I couldn’t agree more. But I’ll leave it at that because I don’t want to upset anyone.

I couldn't even begin to hazard a guess about any animosity against Jean. Maybe it's just long, stable relationships they dislike?

Quesada, in particular, has probably had a mean redhead in his life. That’s my stupid theory. :D

I think it’s more like… they try to get rid of her but they can’t. And that makes them upset because, in a way, she’s more powerful than they are.

And I think it has to do with their fantasies of living through Scott, actually. Some of them would want him to be free of her because they think she’s boring or whatever, but they can’t write them apart because, at the same time, she’s such a big part of his character.

So the only way for Scott to have his big love, but not be with his big love is by having his big love dead.

The problem is that Jean is not important just for Scott. She’s important to lots of fans who never gave up on her event thought Marvel kept her dead for 20+ years (counting both deaths). And she’s important to all the other characters as well and the the X-Mythos as a whole.

Sweet torture, huh?

The O5 is sweet torture. It’s like: “Oh, for god’s sake: just tell him/her already!”

X-Factor is downright torture. It’s like: “Oh, god, that’s messy. Oh, that’s nice. Oh, are they finally? Nooooo! Oh, that’s really messed up. Oh, my god! Finally! What--? Nooooo!”

If you don’t take sides and you understand they’re both so messed up because they weren’t equipped to deal with that messed up situation (and on top of that, there is the stress of the kind of lives they live), you understand what’s happening and the drama actually makes sense.

Anyway, both periods are torturous but, eventually, it pays off to go through them. :D

That also, but I can't square their current situation with their history.

Me neither… *sigh*

My friends and I tried to play D&D but we got derailed very quickly. There's a Marvel tabletop RPG coming out I think, I might look into it.

I tried playing GURPS heroes (really cool system to create super powers) back in the late 90s, I think, but we always thought that playing with medieval fantasy settings was easier for some reason.

So, yeah, we played a lot the AD&D (which is the 2nd edition) and the 3rd edition of D&D. We also played quite some of the 2nd and 3rd edition of the World of Darkness stuff. We tried some GURPS as well, but it was mostly D&D indeed.

Then we got to college and it got much harder and after that we moved to different places (even different time zones) and it got even more complicated, unfortunately. We never really outgrew it, though. Nerds for life, I guess. :)

I completely forgot about that, I have that book. Yeah, that would work just fine for me, but it does make me wonder why no one raised that possibility at the inception of Krakoa as a nation.

It does make you wonder, doesn’t it? Why do you think I have so many theories? :D

Sometimes seems like we can't use our critical thinking skills.

And it’s not just when it comes to comic books, unfortunately.

I never considered that. Okay, if given the choice between those two options? Keep them together, properly.

That’s why I’m hoping too. But I’m also kind saying my goodbyes to them as a couple, just in case.

I don't even remember if they've done more than talk about their relationship.

Wait… when did they talk about their relationship? Serious question.

They’re kind just there… in the same panel.

Being honest, there are only two times I saw something that indicated some kind of romantic feeling: in HoX/PoX and XoS.

During the Orchis mission, when everyone is already dead, Scott is desperately trying to go back to the shuttle where Jean is. There’s a real sense of urgency there of getting back to her and trying to get her back to Earth. And even if they’d end up dying in the shuttle, he wants to be with her (now, mind you: that happens before their first death - it could be significant).

Then there’s that weird little dialogue with the Summoner, but Jean is not even around, so I’m not really counting this one.

And then during the XoS, he falls apart because of Nathan, she kisses him and says: “Let’s go fix it” (Havok83 posted the kissing on the first page of this thread). That’s the other indication of romantic interest, but it’s kinda weak, actually (even if the kiss itself and her line looks cool), because one could read it as an encouragement kiss. Like those little kisses princess Lea gives the boys before they’re about to do something dangerous, you know?

In the Children of the Atom book, she touches his cheek while she’s mediating between the sides of the discussion. It’s actually one of the most affectionate interactions between them. And that tells you how negligent those writers have been.

They also hold hands and seem to be having fun, wearing their X-Factor costumes on X-men#17, I think…

Now, I might have forgotten something here, but I think that’s it? Like I said, I don’t need them to be in a bath tub or rolling in bed together (not that I would mind either :P) but they used to be so affectionate towards each other, even when they weren’t a couple (as teens, then during X-Factor). The contrast is just weird.

They're not a couple here. And yet, look at this:



I mean, just compare to how Remy and Rogue behave around each other.

[Grinning Soul]

Yep. Characterization is subjective as well. My idea of out of character for Jean and Scott is not the same as someone else's. And I don't mean readers who are neutral on them overall. Readers who are big fans of the characters as well. We all bring our own sensibilities, experiences, values to the reading experience.

(...)
Depends on what you are looking for. I want all that grey, I'll watch the news or read about it. The real world is filled with it. I don't want the lines blurred between Superman and Luthor. I understand , like in X men, there has always been some degree of it, but I didn't think it used to cross that line. Which, again, is just an opinion. Is a story character assassination or interesting character development? When SINS PAST came out, I saw JMS online defending the story as the latter for Gwen Stacy. Eyes of the beholder. I know what my eyes told me, though. He just completely trashed her character.

I get what you’re saying. And that’s why I think sometimes we really have to walk away, wait some years, hope the trend changes and the new writers are interested in giving other tones to their narrative. Then try it again and see if we can live with what was left of the stuff we used to love.

And I get it: it hurts. It feels like you’re losing a best friend sometimes. But that’s the beauty of old comics: you can always go back and read them. :)

[Grinning Soul]

Thanks for sharing. Those panels were from Age of X-Man, right? I thought choosing this particular period of Jean and Scott’s relationship to show them so close was such an odd decision! I wonder if the writer meant something with it.

[Hizashi]

This was soo cool

This suit would look great without the skull cap.

[Hizashi]

It was.

Thanks for sharing.

I love his art. I hope he’ll draw some issues of X-Men too.

I’m not a fan of the shard things either, though I understand the concept. He wanted the mutants to “wear their powers” so it would represent mutant fashion. Oh, well, it’s not so bad either.

Yes, please. Because otherwise, as cool mutant-royalty as that moment is, it feels almost a bit ceremonial? Which is appropriate for the moment, for sure, but I’d like to see affectionate interaction more often.

I guess that makes sense about the powers, but I stand by my statement; Jean and Storm are basically the only ones who don't look silly.

Ceremonial is a good way of looking at it, I agree.

[Hizashi]

Yeah. But he just forgets about it. It’s not on purpose. And, I mean, who never did that by mistake anyway, right?

So, yeah: Daredevil show often puts him in a position of being tempted - very tempted - to do the thing he knows is wrong (like killing). That’s good. And sometimes Matt crosses the line. But he’s not a cynical person, he's just being challenged when it comes to his morals. That conversation on the rooftop with Punisher is like a total nergasm for a fan like me who loves Mr. Murdock’s bright, conflicted, heroic heart! *hearteyes*

As for the X-Men in the MCU… I’ve talked to friends about it quite some times. My personal preference would be that they would cast great actors who are pretty unknown for all the roles, then get them on an exclusive contract of 10 years or something. So they can film a movie per year.

I know it’s crazy, but here’s the thing. When I heard Daredevil would get a series I was *ecstatic*. I never thought he was suited for the big screen (though, having a good film of his would make me happy too). But, on series, you have time to explore the character’s psyche and that’s the part of story that I absolutely love.

But the X-Men are big budget, flashy super heroes. I want to see those cool powers on the big screen too. The problem is that I also want to soap opera. The X-Men *do not* work without it. For instance, If they try to re-create the Dark Phoenix saga a third time without making us love Jean the way the characters around her love her, they will fail to replicate the power of the original narrative yet again.

It takes time to create those bonds and it gets particularly tricky when you have so many characters to juggle.

So, in an ideal world, I’d get those actors working pretty much non-stop (except for normal vacations, of course) and while a team of post-production worked on film 1, another team would be filming film 2.

Right, I think if given the choice between the traditional Hollywood approach or a high-budget television series, the latter would make more sense. I see the strength of your idea, but it would be difficult to make changes if there's negative audience reaction, or worse if certain elements turn off enough moviegoers that future installments don't return-on-investment.

There were some ups and downs, but they were mostly okay indeed.

Maybe the spotlight could've spread out a little more and they failed to stick the landing, but the main narrative was pretty good.

It’s good that you did, because it makes no sense to blame the character. Even if he had been the motivation for killing Jean off, it was the decision of the editors and writers. The poor character has nothing to do with it.

Exactly, that's all there is to it. And on top of that, it's not like Scott's fans wanted Jean to be benched for years, not even the ones who don't want Jott together.

I couldn’t agree more. But I’ll leave it at that because I don’t want to upset anyone.

It's one of my more controversial opinions, along with X-Men: Red being a letdown.

Quesada, in particular, has probably had a mean redhead in his life. That’s my stupid theory.

I think it’s more like… they try to get rid of her but they can’t. And that makes them upset because, in a way, she’s more powerful than they are.

And I think it has to do with their fantasies of living through Scott, actually. Some of them would want him to be free of her because they think she’s boring or whatever, but they can’t write them apart because, at the same time, she’s such a big part of his character.

So the only way for Scott to have his big love, but not be with his big love is by having his big love dead.

The problem is that Jean is not important just for Scott. She’s important to lots of fans who never gave up on her event thought Marvel kept her dead for 20+ years (counting both deaths). And she’s important to all the other characters as well and the the X-Mythos as a whole.

It's similar to how the X-Office wanted us to believe that they had written Scott as a bad guy, when it was clear as day that they failed because he is also more powerful than they realize. I think one of the editors addressed that a couple of years ago and continued to insist that point, and that you could argue it, but that's not true, they can't sell that no matter how hard they try. They were wrong about that, and they're wrong if they think Jean needed/needs to benched for other characters.

The O5 is sweet torture. It’s like: “Oh, for god’s sake: just tell him/her already!”

X-Factor is downright torture. It’s like: “Oh, god, that’s messy. Oh, that’s nice. Oh, are they finally? Nooooo! Oh, that’s really messed up. Oh, my god! Finally! What--? Nooooo!”

If you don’t take sides and you understand they’re both so messed up because they weren’t equipped to deal with that messed up situation (and on top of that, there is the stress of the kind of lives they live), you understand what’s happening and the drama actually makes sense.

Anyway, both periods are torturous but, eventually, it pays off to go through them.

Shame there's no X-Factor omnis or OHC's. I'll have to settle for the trades.

Me neither… *sigh*

It really demoralizes my reading experience.

I tried playing GURPS heroes (really cool system to create super powers) back in the late 90s, I think, but we always thought that playing with medieval fantasy settings was easier for some reason.

So, yeah, we played a lot the AD&D (which is the 2nd edition) and the 3rd edition of D&D. We also played quite some of the 2nd and 3rd edition of the World of Darkness stuff. We tried some GURPS as well, but it was mostly D&D indeed.

Then we got to college and it got much harder and after that we moved to different places (even different time zones) and it got even more complicated, unfortunately. We never really outgrew it, though. Nerds for life, I guess.

I just want to have as many varied activities as possible to enjoy with friends and family. As comics go, I want to eventually give all of my trades to my nieces/nephew, or my own kids if/when they outgrow comics.

It does make you wonder, doesn’t it? Why do you think I have so many theories?

I have more what if's or original ideas than theories. I've never written fanfiction before, but I see the appeal - I have read some before, and there are cases where they seem more internally consistent than the actual source material. That's not necessarily about the X-Books, just in general.

And it’s not just when it comes to comic books, unfortunately.

Yeah, exactly. A lot of people can't seem to have good faith conversations about media these days.

That’s why I’m hoping too. But I’m also kind saying my goodbyes to them as a couple, just in case.

I don't know that there's anything that fans can do, Marvel will just do whatever they please, character consistency and internal logic be damned.

Wait… when did they talk about their relationship? Serious question.

They’re kind just there… in the same panel.

Being honest, there are only two times I saw something that indicated some kind of romantic feeling: in HoX/PoX and XoS.

During the Orchis mission, when everyone is already dead, Scott is desperately trying to go back to the shuttle where Jean is. There’s a real sense of urgency there of getting back to her and trying to get her back to Earth. And even if they’d end up dying in the shuttle, he wants to be with her (now, mind you: that happens before their first death - it could be significant).

Then there’s that weird little dialogue with the Summoner, but Jean is not even around, so I’m not really counting this one.

And then during the XoS, he falls apart because of Nathan, she kisses him and says: “Let’s go fix it” (Havok83 posted the kissing on the first page of this thread). That’s the other indication of romantic interest, but it’s kinda weak, actually (even if the kiss itself and her line looks cool), because one could read it as an encouragement kiss. Like those little kisses princess Lea gives the boys before they’re about to do something dangerous, you know?

In the Children of the Atom book, she touches his cheek while she’s mediating between the sides of the discussion. It’s actually one of the most affectionate interactions between them. And that tells you how negligent those writers have been.

They also hold hands and seem to be having fun, wearing their X-Factor costumes on X-men#17, I think…

Now, I might have forgotten something here, but I think that’s it? Like I said, I don’t need them to be in a bath tub or rolling in bed together (not that I would mind either :P) but they used to be so affectionate towards each other, even when they weren’t a couple (as teens, then during X-Factor). The contrast is just weird.

They're not a couple here. And yet, look at this:



I mean, just compare to how Remy and Rogue behave around each other.

Right, I meant talk to others or reference it to others, not that they had discussed their relationship between themselves. How silly would that be right?

[cykecrawler]

Untitled_Artwork.jpg. Just some fanart

[Grinning Soul]

Right, I think if given the choice between the traditional Hollywood approach or a high-budget television series, the latter would make more sense. I see the strength of your idea, but it would be difficult to make changes if there's negative audience reaction, or worse if certain elements turn off enough moviegoers that future installments don't return-on-investment.

Oh, yeah. I should have mentioned, but I don’t think my idea is feasible, actually. That would be the ideal scenario for me but it’s never been done and I’m not sure Disney would want to risk it.

I agree with you about the series, but I think the X-Men are just too big. They’ll probably want to push them for the movies (and the big bucks).

And they’re probably going to be cool, like most of the MCU. And only us, the comic geeks, will feel like they could have been so much better. :)

We might get some side series on the Disney streaming service, though. So, there’s that. :)

Maybe the spotlight could've spread out a little more and they failed to stick the landing, but the main narrative was pretty good.

Mmm… I mostly agree with what you’re saying. I think I’m still a frustrated that that narrative extended for some many years and didn’t really go anywhere satisfying, particularly when it came to Hope… I mean, I know of her role in AvX, but AvX is so hard to stomach…

I also wonder if our perception isn't be a bit coloured because everything that came after was… well… that. So things look good in comparison, you know?

I think it will still take me a few years to read back on it and have a more objective view.

Exactly, that's all there is to it. And on top of that, it's not like Scott's fans wanted Jean to be benched for years, not even the ones who don't want Jott together.

Well, some Scott fans do hate Jean and it wouldn’t surprise me if they preferred she was still dead to this day. But I think they’re not the majority and even if they were, it’s still not the character’s fault, so no reason for Jean’s fans to hate the character.

Dislike the characters for what they did in-story? Sure, go ahead. But blaming the characters for bad writing and editorial decisions is absurd.

Yet, it goes on. And it affects some of the writers themselves because those writers were likely to have been comic book readers before. So, really, this cycle of hate helps no one.

It's one of my more controversial opinions, along with X-Men: Red being a letdown.

I don’t think X-Men: Red being a letdown is controversial. I have some problems with it but I mostly like it. I’ve read many people saying they don’t, though. I'd say a good 35-45% of the people who read it have a similar opinion that it was a letdown.

And I even agree with some of the points they make, honestly. But I think that what the book gets right, it gets so right that I can’t help enjoying most of it.

It's similar to how the X-Office wanted us to believe that they had written Scott as a bad guy, when it was clear as day that they failed because he is also more powerful than they realize. I think one of the editors addressed that a couple of years ago and continued to insist that point, and that you could argue it, but that's not true, they can't sell that no matter how hard they try. They were wrong about that, and they're wrong if they think Jean needed/needs to benched for other characters.

Maybe not for Scott’s sake. He has been a big name since the 60s. But it’s undeniable the growth in popularity and importance in the MU that Emma experienced.

I’m not mentioning it from a bitter place. It’s really just a factual observation.

Shame there's no X-Factor omnis or OHC's. I'll have to settle for the trades.

I’m not sure what is available over there.

They released this this week, right? https://www.marvel.com/comics/issue/...dition_2021_30

X-Men: Legends is currently about X-Factor too, so… who knows? :)

There was the Essential X-Factor, Vol. 1-5, that covered the first 70 issues and the O5 run in the book. You can still find it on Amazon. But considering everything that I guess you’d still want to read, you could probably wait.

It really demoralizes my reading experience.

It’s what happens in general when continuity is disregarded, I guess. But, yeah, I know what you mean ‘cause I feel something similar.

I just want to have as many varied activities as possible to enjoy with friends and family. As comics go, I want to eventually give all of my trades to my nieces/nephew, or my own kids if/when they outgrow comics.

Well, if you have the time and friends who are interested, do give tabletop RPG a try, then. There’s something really special about creating a story together. :)

I have more what if's or original ideas than theories. I've never written fanfiction before, but I see the appeal - I have read some before, and there are cases where they seem more internally consistent than the actual source material. That's not necessarily about the X-Books, just in general.

I’ve always enjoyed writing all kinds of stuff, including poems (oh, my teenage angst produced quite a few of them! :D), so I have written some fan-fiction, but I write them mostly to myself and I only show them to a few friends, if they want to read them. Sometimes those friends are the instigators of that writing! :D

It’s fun, but it’s actually really hard if you’re not trying to make it only about your fantasies, you know? It’s much easier to write your own stuff. :)

I read fan-fiction with completely different eyes, though. And as long as they’re not… how can I say? Vindictive? You know, when people use their work to be mean to other characters they dislike? Anyway, as long as it’s not like that, I tend to like them just because I see the love the writers put on them.

They vary widely in quality. Some are pretty silly. Some are really good. But I don’t know… As long as they’re not negative and mean, I have a soft spot for them. :)

I don't know that there's anything that fans can do, Marvel will just do whatever they please, character consistency and internal logic be damned.

Yeah… There was a time the dialogue between fans and creators was much easier, much more respectful. It’s not a problem that is restricted to comic books only.
Nowadays there is a certain entitlement by the part of the fans and a certain arrogance by the part of the creators. It makes having a conversation really difficult.

And it’s a shame because better stories/products could come as result from this interaction. And if more people are happy with the overall quality, more successful the product would be in terms of profit. You’d think this would be the interest of the business part of the process, but it doesn’t seem to dawn on them. The prefer to spend time/resources on marketing instead.

Ego can be so counter-productive… :(

Right, I meant talk to others or reference it to others, not that they had discussed their relationship between themselves. How silly would that be right?

Right! :D

Did they talk to other people, though? I don’t think they did that at all… Did they?

[Grinning Soul]

Just some fanart

This is so cute! Thanks for sharing!

[lancer]

I get what you’re saying. And that’s why I think sometimes we really have to walk away, wait some years, hope the trend changes and the new writers are interested in giving other tones to their narrative. Then try it again and see if we can live with what was left of the stuff we used to love.

And I get it: it hurts. It feels like you’re losing a best friend sometimes. But that’s the beauty of old comics: you can always go back and read them.

Yep. If you read as long as I did there was a real emotional investment there. And even after not reading for over 15 years there is still an emotional residue. Why would I even look at a thread otherwise? Myself, it's serial fiction. Makes it hard to read the old issues when you know what happened down the road. Still, that doesn't change that they were my favorite Marvel couple for a long time and I can still look at a lot of the panels you post with some real affection.. It was too long for me to completely cut the cord.

[Hizashi]

Untitled_Artwork.jpg. Just some fanart

This is really good.

[Hizashi]

Oh, yeah. I should have mentioned, but I don’t think my idea is feasible, actually. That would be the ideal scenario for me but it’s never been done and I’m not sure Disney would want to risk it.

I agree with you about the series, but I think the X-Men are just too big. They’ll probably want to push them for the movies (and the big bucks).

And they’re probably going to be cool, like most of the MCU. And only us, the comic geeks, will feel like they could have been so much better.

We might get some side series on the Disney streaming service, though. So, there’s that.

I actually started having some issues with how the MCU was playing out recently, and I really didn't like Endgame. I would be happy if the X-Men stayed out of the movies if this direction is set in stone.

I'm not a total negative-Nate, they can make it work, but I just don't know...

Mmm… I mostly agree with what you’re saying. I think I’m still a frustrated that that narrative extended for some many years and didn’t really go anywhere satisfying, particularly when it came to Hope… I mean, I know of her role in AvX, but AvX is so hard to stomach…

I also wonder if our perception isn't be a bit coloured because everything that came after was… well… that. So things look good in comparison, you know?

I think it will still take me a few years to read back on it and have a more objective view.

Yeah, I'm going to work my way back to it; the ending was definitely where I think they dropped the ball. It's gonna take a while to get to it.

Well, some Scott fans do hate Jean and it wouldn’t surprise me if they preferred she was still dead to this day. But I think they’re not the majority and even if they were, it’s still not the character’s fault, so no reason for Jean’s fans to hate the character.

Dislike the characters for what they did in-story? Sure, go ahead. But blaming the characters for bad writing and editorial decisions is absurd.

Yet, it goes on. And it affects some of the writers themselves because those writers were likely to have been comic book readers before. So, really, this cycle of hate helps no one.

Yeah, I guess I just forget about the overzealous fans because everyone over in Scott's thread is always a good sport.

I can understand writers having biases but that's when editors should step in.

I don’t think X-Men: Red being a letdown is controversial. I have some problems with it but I mostly like it. I’ve read many people saying they don’t, though. I'd say a good 35-45% of the people who read it have a similar opinion that it was a letdown.

And I even agree with some of the points they make, honestly. But I think that what the book gets right, it gets so right that I can’t help enjoying most of it.

I guess it just didn't do it for me, I thought that they really dropped the ball on the opportunity they had with Jean.

Maybe not for Scott’s sake. He has been a big name since the 60s. But it’s undeniable the growth in popularity and importance in the MU that Emma experienced.

I’m not mentioning it from a bitter place. It’s really just a factual observation.

Yeah, there's no denying that.

I’m not sure what is available over there.

They released this this week, right? https://www.marvel.com/comics/issue/...dition_2021_30

X-Men: Legends is currently about X-Factor too, so… who knows?

There was the Essential X-Factor, Vol. 1-5, that covered the first 70 issues and the O5 run in the book. You can still find it on Amazon. But considering everything that I guess you’d still want to read, you could probably wait.

Yeah, I'll wait, who knows? Maybe I'll get lucky.

It’s what happens in general when continuity is disregarded, I guess. But, yeah, I know what you mean ‘cause I feel something similar.

Thank goodness for other comics, my LCS, and these forums.

Well, if you have the time and friends who are interested, do give tabletop RPG a try, then. There’s something really special about creating a story together.

We're gonna give it another go, we were new to D&D and lost track of things.

I’ve always enjoyed writing all kinds of stuff, including poems (oh, my teenage angst produced quite a few of them! ), so I have written some fan-fiction, but I write them mostly to myself and I only show them to a few friends, if they want to read them. Sometimes those friends are the instigators of that writing!

It’s fun, but it’s actually really hard if you’re not trying to make it only about your fantasies, you know? It’s much easier to write your own stuff.

I read fan-fiction with completely different eyes, though. And as long as they’re not… how can I say? Vindictive? You know, when people use their work to be mean to other characters they dislike? Anyway, as long as it’s not like that, I tend to like them just because I see the love the writers put on them.

They vary widely in quality. Some are pretty silly. Some are really good. But I don’t know… As long as they’re not negative and mean, I have a soft spot for them.

I imagine the highest praise for FF is when it's considered as or more consistent as the source material. In a way, comics are like that, with each creative team being passed the baton and responsible for maintaining continuity and consistency. I think Marvel has done a poor job of that lately.

Yeah… There was a time the dialogue between fans and creators was much easier, much more respectful. It’s not a problem that is restricted to comic books only.

Nowadays there is a certain entitlement by the part of the fans and a certain arrogance by the part of the creators. It makes having a conversation really difficult.

And it’s a shame because better stories/products could come as result from this interaction. And if more people are happy with the overall quality, more successful the product would be in terms of profit. You’d think this would be the interest of the business part of the process, but it doesn’t seem to dawn on them. The prefer to spend time/resources on marketing instead.

Ego can be so counter-productive…

It's disheartening. I just finished reading a couple of books on Jack Kirby, and you can see that he was beloved and respected by fans. I know how it sounds, but modern technology/social media has made it so easy to disassociate from bad behavior by everyone, I think proper conversations could help make the industry stronger.

Right!

Did they talk to other people, though? I don’t think they did that at all… Did they?

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought they occasionally referenced or alluded their being together with other characters.

[Grinning Soul]

Yep. If you read as long as I did there was a real emotional investment there. And even after not reading for over 15 years there is still an emotional residue. Why would I even look at a thread otherwise? Myself, it's serial fiction. Makes it hard to read the old issues when you know what happened down the road. Still, that doesn't change that they were my favorite Marvel couple for a long time and I can still look at a lot of the panels you post with some real affection.. It was too long for me to completely cut the cord.

I understand. I’m glad seeing those panels bring some warm feelings to you. They have the same effect on me.

I’ll post some more from time to time. :)

[Grinning Soul]

I guess that makes sense about the powers, but I stand by my statement; Jean and Storm are basically the only ones who don't look silly.

Sorry! I skipped this message yesterday.

You know, high fashion is, many times, silly. :D

More specifically about Scott, I kinda see how difficult it would be to create an outfit for him. There are some things about his outfit that I like, but I don’t like the overall look. The worst, I think, is the blocky colours of the jacket/torso and the fact both the red and the yellows are too bright.

Just ‘cause it’s for our boy (and because I really like you), I modified his Gala look a bit to change some of the things that bother me (I got rid of the onesie and gave him shirt and pants - because who can pee wearing that? Mr. Summers was supposed to be a practical man! :P - modified the jacket so it doesn’t include gloves and added an opening that makes it look less blocky on his chest, eliminated the red/yellow parts on his torso and darkened the red around his neck).



EDIT: I know the whole look becomes more "plain", but I think it's appropriate for Scott Summers. That visor is already outrageous enough for him. I think the rest could be toned-down. But it's just my opinion, anyway.

By the way, feel free to vent about his outfit and his participation on the Gala. I do believe we fans should act as a support group therapy to each other and I know that has been bothering you. I’m here for you, my friend. :)

Ceremonial is a good way of looking at it, I agree.

Don’t get me wrong: they *are* a power couple. They’re the crème-de-la-crème when it comes to Marvel’s power couples. They look cool and iconic af together. They are mutant royalty and it makes total sense they'd have this ceremonial role. But I’d like to see more than that.

I actually started having some issues with how the MCU was playing out recently, and I really didn't like Endgame. I would be happy if the X-Men stayed out of the movies if this direction is set in stone.

I'm not a total negative-Nate, they can make it work, but I just don't know...

Yeah, Age of Ultron and Endgame weren’t so good. But I loved Civil War for many reasons.

I think, overall, the movies are fine. Some could better. Some could be much better. But when you compare to other super hero movies from Sony, Fox and Warner? The MCU is in another league.

Yeah, I'm going to work my way back to it; the ending was definitely where I think they dropped the ball. It's gonna take a while to get to it.

I won’t even try right now. I really need some years so I can be more objective, I think. But I’ll probably go back to it eventually.

I can understand writers having biases but that's when editors should step in.

I’m *not* saying that editors don’t do anything at Marvel, but I wonder how much input they actually give to the stories. For instance, do they read the scripts at all? Sometimes I think they don’t.

I guess it just didn't do it for me, I thought that they really dropped the ball on the opportunity they had with Jean.

I totally get it.

What I love about Jean the most is her personality. Her way of seeing the world through kind lenses, of seeing the best in people, or wanting to help. Those things are done nearly perfect in X-Men: Red and I love it.

I do think Jean is lacking a lot of her temper and impulsiveness in that book, though.

But you know? I’ve been a fan of hers forever and I’ve been writing since I was a kid. When I first attempted to write her, I though it would be a piece of cake.

Boy, was I wrong!

She is *hard*, *super hard*, to get right. She’s so complex and nuanced. She has personality traits that are paradoxical, even though they make sense for her character. Just an example: she is the sweetest creature and she’s generally a practical, reasonable woman, but she does have that explosive temper, that passionate volcanic eruption of emotions - good or bad - that get the best of her sometimes. Try to balance just those traits and you’ll see how difficult it is.

So, yeah, after I attempted and failed miserably for months, I became more forgiven when it comes to how writers portray her.

We're gonna give it another go, we were new to D&D and lost track of things.

At first the rules get in the way of the fun, I think. Once you get more familiarised with them, you can focus more on the story and the characters. I hope it works better next time you try. :)

I imagine the highest praise for FF is when it's considered as or more consistent as the source material. In a way, comics are like that, with each creative team being passed the baton and responsible for maintaining continuity and consistency. I think Marvel has done a poor job of that lately.

Look, continuity can be a problem when people hold on to details, sure. But when you ignore the more significant stories and characterisation, it becomes a much bigger problem.

At least, for me. The reason I read a story that has a continuous nature (meaning, it’s not a limited series) is *exactly* because I want the past events to influence the current and the future ones. I’m all for character development, but *show* me that. Don’t just present your take of the character because you decided it was time they changed. No… take me on this journey *with* the character. Make it part of the narrative. Very few things are more compelling - especially when it comes to the X-Men - than character-driven stories.

It's disheartening. I just finished reading a couple of books on Jack Kirby, and you can see that he was beloved and respected by fans. I know how it sounds, but modern technology/social media has made it so easy to disassociate from bad behavior by everyone, I think proper conversations could help make the industry stronger.

Yes. It’s very easy to de-humanise the person on the other side of the screen, when all you see is what they wrote. The fact the messages became so short and sending them is a matter of clicking a virtual button also play a role.

It’s a shame that technology has facilitated communication so much but it also affected how we relate and communicate with each other.

I mean, I think most writers nowadays wouldn’t have the patience to read fan letters from fans back in the 60s anyway. And now that I think about it… I don’t think any of the X-books nowadays have a fan letter section, do they?

Maybe I'm misremembering, but I thought they occasionally referenced or alluded their being together with other characters.

The only two instances I can remember that I would remotely characterise like that was when Scott talked to the Summoner briefly and when he explained to his father why he is living in the Moon. But both mentions are not necessarily about Jean (or just her), so… Anyway, that is still two more instances that I can think of her referencing their marriage.

Other than that, Kurt asked Scott what Jean told him about the Crucible, but Scott didn’t know because they didn’t talk about it, because they were busy… Does that count?

I don’t know, Hizashi. I really don’t remember anything other than that. But my memory has been so bad… please, don’t quote me on that. And if you do remember something about it, please, let me know ‘cause I’d like to read it again. :)