Omega Shenron vs. Beerus

[master of read]

They don't specify which form of Vegito though. For all we know, they could have been saying SSJ4 Goku was about the same level as SSJ3 Vegito.

SSJ4 Goku was absolutely no threat to Omega though. Plain old Syn Shenron was far stronger than him and Omega is 10x stronger than Syn.

We have "never sensed this much power before" kind of quotes to compare.

Goku says when he attains SSJG that he never imagined this kind of power before. So SSJG Goku would appear to be stronger than Super Vegito at the very least.

Yet in GT we have Goku asaying that, in regards to Super Baby Vegeta, he had never felt a ki this large before.

So...make of all that what you will.

you do know that BoG invalids everything in GT, right? not that there was much of anything that was valid in GT anyway.

[Hazard]

Trying to fit in BoG in GT doesn't work.

It's not like God Ki or easily available SSG rituals get mentioned even once.

[master of read]

Trying to fit in BoG in GT doesn't work.

It's not like God Ki or easily available SSG rituals get mentioned even once.

fitting GT into DB/DBZ alone doesn't work. i've seem so many people try it over the years and the only ways for it to war is to utterly turn off your brain and kill your logic.

[NK1988]

you do know that BoG invalids everything in GT, right? not that there was much of anything that was valid in GT anyway.

I wasn't trying to fit the two together, just pointing out comparable quotes.

[master of read]

I wasn't trying to fit the two together, just pointing out comparable quotes.

one quote is from a movie that is officially canon with the anime, according to the man who created said anime.

the other is from a gloried fanfiction that is full of plot holes, inconsistencies, and by the original author's words, is only canon to itself and has no connection to his work.

there really is no need for comparison.

[NK1988]

First off, I don't think the idea of "Canon" exists at all in Toriyama's head and he certainly has never spoken out about GT's canon. The entire idea of "manga canon" or "anime canon" is something made up by people on the Internet when they don't want to use anime feats for a series.

The only thing he has said, in the GT Dragon Box, is that it was a side story.

Second, Battle of Gods is a continuation of the manga, not the anime.

Finally, Battle of Gods has inconsistencies as well. Probably because one of BOG's writers (yes, it was not solely written by Toriyama so it's not as "canon" as the manga) has a clear bias for Vegeta.

[Dark Soul # 7]

Baby Vegeta

Super 17

Shadow Dragons

Lots of distance in those strikes, yes. But nothing that can really compare to what Goku's punch did to King Kai's planet or what Bills did by accident to multiple planets at the end of BoG.

one quote is from a movie that is officially canon with the anime, according to the man who created said anime.

the other is from a gloried fanfiction that is full of plot holes, inconsistencies, and by the original author's words, is only canon to itself and has no connection to his work.

there really is no need for comparison.

Not to mention that the statements in question are very generic and not feats.

If statements about how power levels feel were feats then Bleach's feat pool would be double at least.

[Dark Soul # 7]

Finally, Battle of Gods has inconsistencies as well.

What inconsistencies does BoG have? Bills' power level seem pretty consistent to me.

[Anarchist]

First off, I don't think the idea of "Canon" exists at all in Toriyama's head and he certainly has never spoken out about GT's canon. The entire idea of "manga canon" or "anime canon" is something made up by people on the Internet when they don't want to use anime feats for a series.

The only thing he has said, in the GT Dragon Box, is that it was a side story.

Second, Battle of Gods is a continuation of the manga, not the anime.

Finally, Battle of Gods has inconsistencies as well. Probably because one of BOG's writers (yes, it was not solely written by Toriyama so it's not as "canon" as the manga) has a clear bias for Vegeta.

Yeah, I mean Akira even drew a SSJ4 for the Dragon Box and oversaw the production of GT.
Wasn't he also involved in producing some of the movies?

He even gave his ok for some fillers.

So yeah, seperating *canon* and *non-canon* is more of a fan-thing than real business.

[moonknight11]

Honestly separating the canons doesnt have to be that hard.

GT is meant as continuation of the already non canon anime so putting it on its own self contained canon doesnt make sense. yeah it may have inconsistencies in power levels or whatever but so what.

[Hazard]

Honestly separating the canons doesnt have to be that hard.

GT is meant as continuation of the already non canon anime so putting it on its own self contained canon doesnt make sense. yeah it may have inconsistencies in power levels or whatever but so what.

Kind of everything.

Look there wouldn't be problem if characters performed remotely okay. However, characters continuously fail to show the power they should have.

GT is left alone not because it is non canon. The movie are non canon and they absorb feats from the anime continuity just fine.

GT is left alone because its characters fail to show the strength they should have.

[abmccray]

Akira doesn't think of GT as canon because he doesn't really acknowledge it when discussing characters or factor it in when making new things. That's why it's viewed as fanfic; it has no influence on actual continuity.

The issue of "canon" is more about "if something new comes along, can this be overwritten?" As GT has been.

GT is a continuation of the anime AND the movies, which creates a giant mess when trying to reconcile everything as there are a ton of things that don't match up. It's just annoying like that.

As Hazard said, the problem many of -us- have with GT is that feats go backwards in it, for characters that SHOULD be more powerful. Even if we spotted them more power, there's no way to state how much because they don't really show anything more powerful than Freeza saga.

[moonknight11]

The super 17 fight seemed more impressive than and in line with the SS3 Goku fight with Majin Buu.

GT is as canon as the anime and movies in being not canon at all. The movies are even more egregious in inconsistency considering that movies like Cooler's Revenge and Lord Slug dont even fit in the timeline of the anime.

The Buu and Cell Saga dont show anything really more powerful than the Freeza saga as well(aside from Kid Buu blowing the earth up, and Gotenks circling the earth catching up with his energy trail). **** like the 1st Zarbon fight between him and Vegeta showed more collateral damage than the fight against the androids, or Goku vs Cell. The Freeza saga kinda topped out their physical feats aside from a scant few like the BoG Goku feat or the Super 17 fight.

[Hazard]

The super 17 fight seemed more impressive than and in line with the SS3 Goku fight with Majin Buu.

Just Frieza level stuff at best honestly which is kind of sad since that's the best fight in the entirety of GT.

GT is as canon as the anime and movies in being not canon at all. The movies are even more egregious in inconsistency considering that movies like Cooler's Revenge and Lord Slug dont even fit in the timeline of the anime.

Yeah, but those have cool feats so they can get powerscaled easily enough.

Like I said the problem is not fitting it in canon, the problem is the characters' feats suck

The Buu and Cell Saga dont show anything really more powerful than the Freeza saga as well(aside from Kid Buu blowing the earth up, and Gotenks circling the earth catching up with his energy trail). **** like the 1st Zarbon fight between him and Vegeta showed more collateral damage than the fight against the androids, or Goku vs Cell. The Freeza saga kinda topped out their physical feats aside from a scant few like the BoG Goku feat or the Super 17 fight.

Androids/Cell Saga:
Trunks Sword and all the feats that come with it.
300G training.
Ki Blasts going into space. Repeatedly.
Explanation that characters can no longer hit Earth with a Kamehameha (or similar moves) since it would blow it up no matter how good they are with control.

Buu:
Gottenks circling the Earth
Gotenks gigantic crater from punching Super Buu
Buu's blasts killing every single person left on Earth.
Quick Fire Kamehameha. Lots of them.
Punching stuff through the Earth
Kid Buu's insanely casual planet busting


I'm not telling there must be dozens of high end feats. I'm telling you there must be some high end feats. GT only has 1 feat that's above the stuff we see in the manga and that's Goku's FTL Kamehameha.

Other than that we are looking at lots of low ends to the point low ends are the norm not the exception.

[abmccray]

Non GT also has a nice scaling logic.

It normally goes directly back between powerup and villain to directly compare back and forth. Heroes stomped by Radditz, Goku's powerup easily handles Radditz, Goku is strained to the limit for an even fight with Vegeta. Everyone can stomp Cell, he powers up and can stomp others, Piccolo gets a powerup to be the most powerful (arguably because of 17), Cell powers up to be able to stomp Piccolo, Vegeta powers up to be able to stomp Cell, Cell powers up to stomp Vegeta...etc.

In GT, it gets kind of weird. Firstly, Goku is the one that does EVERYTHING, so the back and forth is limited because the other characters aren't allowed to succeed. So it ends up with weird things like GOKU powering up the villain by feeding him energy, or dragon fists out of nowhere, or SSJ4 Gogeta losing last minute and the villain just standing around to get killed. There isn't that direct, back and forth, ABC that makes it clear as to what's even going on.