New Avengers #3 Preview and Discussion

[Stahlflamme]

Minor quibble, the four cardinal creatures (White Tiger, Black Snake-Turtle, Blue/Green Dragon, and Red Phoenix; plus the mostly unknown fifth the middle Yellow Quilin) appeared in Chinese mythology first, and the concept was adopted by the Japanese, as well as Korea I believe. The culture of the Asia Pacific region is very amorphous overall, though most stories have roots in China first and then spread to the other countries. The story of the 8 Dog Soldiers for example, was written by a Japanese literary writer into a story about warrior values mostly, but its roots are from the origin myth of Pan Hu the Dog God/King, the progenitor of a particular ethnic group of people in Southern China.

I use the Japanese name for the White Tiger, but his Chinese name is Bai Hu. I'm Southeast Asian myself, so I've experienced the amorphous nature of Chinese folk religion all my life (it's interesting to see how the worship of particular deities have changed from the mainland). We even adopt other religions or culture's gods because a god's a god. If you go to Waterloo street in Singapore, there's a temple to the Hindu god Hanuman right next to the temple of the Chinese deity Guan Yin. And most of the Chinese worshiping her go to pray to Hanuman as well, we're not picky.

It's partially why I don't get the whole craziness over 'cultural appropriation'. Feels like my people would be accused of doing that to the mainland Chinese considering how the customs changed (and that's not even getting into how some old traditions only exist outside mainland China post-communism).

Meh, I'm getting off-tangent.

Thanks for the Info I'm not an expert on the topic.

Or maybe Ewing did do some research, and found Wiccan has a more mixed reaction than your own anecdotal evidence suggests. Or maybe it has nothing to do with "white guilt" and Ewing just finds the name misleading, and wanted to change it for that reason. Maybe, instead of making assumptions about Ewing's motivations, you should actually ask him? Or, hell, for all we know, he's actually going a completely different direction and he'll end up keeping the Wiccan codename.

Regardless, the point is that you're throwing around accusations without actually having a damned thing to back them up, and maybe that's something you shouldn't do.

As for White Tiger and Power Man, now you're just being ridiculous. Yeah, quite a few cultures have stories about white tigers. But the name has nothing to do with any particular culture. And Power Man having originally been the name of a white villain means nothing. Again, the name has nothing to do with any particular culture. They're fairly typical superhero names, ultimately. White Tiger isn't that different from Black Widow. Power Man isn't that different from Mr. Fantastic.

And the Wiccan codenmae was a chosen because its the closest thing to a male term for witch, Wiccan never called himself a wiccan but went with either witch or warlock. So its the same as the White Tiger example. Just because you make up another Tiger God makes it not any less potentially insulting to a certain culture just like the choice of a name that also applies to a religion without ever attempting to make that connection is not.
There are christian folk out there who consider every depiction of magic offensive and hey, jews having magic powers could be considered pretty offensive, too, because that is an stereotype and don't get me started on gypsy witch Wanda. Or hey the depictions of gods thats pretty damn horrific, cause there are so many people who believe in exactly one god and could feel so offended by the fact that all these gods get depicted as real...

The difference between Power Man and Mr Fantastic is that the guy who had the name originally wanted Cage to stop using it guess who is going by Atlas these days. Or maybe he doesn't. Maybe he is dead. And Wiccan is not that different from Shaman except Shaman has been potraying that culture somewhat wrongly for years now. Brother Vodoo is not a pretty accurate depiction of Vodoo and Son of Satan... well, you get the idea.

And you don't need to be an expert on the topic to see Ewing has a massive case of white guilt in his interviews, comments and comics, just like you can tell he has no particularly close connection to any of the minorities he is trying to write.

[Confuzzled]

And the Wiccan codenmae was a chosen because its the closest thing to a male term for witch, Wiccan never called himself a wiccan but went with either witch or warlock. So its the same as the White Tiger example. Just because you make up another Tiger God makes it not any less potentially insulting to a certain culture just like the choice of a name that also applies to a religion without ever attempting to make that connection is not.

Er... isn't "wizard" the closest male term for a witch? I personally think even simply "Wizard" would be a better codename for Billy. "Wiccan" is pretty gender neutral and always pertains to Wicca when referenced in culture. And the White Tiger thing is such a stretch it isn't even funny. A combination of a color and an animal does not belong to any culture, especially if the animal in question has a species that exists in real life in that very color.



And again, all these assumptions about Ewing being driven by white guilt and finding the name insulting to real-life Wiccans are just that, assumptions. As Tiamatty said, maybe he just finds the name misleading as Billy has nothing to do with Wicca and it is not even that memorable or catchy a superhero name to begin with.

[Stahlflamme]

Wizard was taken by an gravity defying techno villain. And yes, a character that has been popular under the name Wiccan for ten years... lets change the name because it doesn't sound so catchy now, because obviously his fans all just hate it and want that people not familiar with the character to not find his earlier appeareances anymore. Plus the comic is pretty clear on the fact that this is about things being potentially insulting to Wiccans. Because if Ewing wants to change the name because he doesn't like it, but gives the cultural reasons in the story the implication is that he is an bigot who uses other cultures as justification to change things around he doesn't like. Hypocrisy 101. Thats a worse implication than him having a massive case of white guilt and feeling the misguided but real need to stand up for these discriminated people.

White tiger gets her power from a god that is a white tiger and I believe the cultural white tiger is some kind of guardian deity so the connection is a lot stronger thant just choosing a color and animal.

[Byakko]

Er... isn't "wizard" the closest male term for a witch? I personally think even simply "Wizard" would be a better codename for Billy. "Wiccan" is pretty gender neutral and always pertains to Wicca when referenced in culture. And the White Tiger thing is such a stretch it isn't even funny. A combination of a color and an animal does not belong to any culture, especially if the animal in question has a species that exists in real life in that very color.


And again, all these assumptions about Ewing being driven by white guilt and finding the name insulting to real-life Wiccans are just that, assumptions. As Tiamatty said, maybe he just finds the name misleading as Billy has nothing to do with Wicca and it is not even that memorable or catchy a superhero name to begin with.

A white tiger is a genetic mutation in coloration, not a subspecies. The mutation can occur in any subspecies of tiger, though the most common stock is from a Bengal tiger strand due to deliberate inbreeding to produce more of the mutation.

Though I will agree that an animal like the tiger is revered in many cultures, and is a very popular artistic motif and symbol.

The Tungusic people considered the Siberian tiger a near-deity and often referred to it as "Grandfather" or "Old man".

The Udege and Nanai called it "Amba".

The Manchu considered the Siberian tiger as Hu Lin, the king.

The most elite unit of the Chinese Imperial Army in the Manchu Qing Dynasty was called "Hu Shen Ying", literally "The Tiger God Battalion".

Hodori, the mascot of the 1988 Summer Olympics in Seoul, South Korea, is a Siberian tiger. The Siberian tiger is used as a charge in heraldry and is the national animal of Korea.

The tiger's a common symbol because it's a cool looking giant cat with a striking pattern. It's pretty stupid to scream 'cultural appropriation' of something akin to a universal symbol.

Plus, I guess I have to represent most Chinese people right now. I don't give a **** about the White Tiger powers. Have you seen how often the cardinal creatures are used in popular culture? Like Beyblade? All the powers of a deity. In a plastic spinning top toy. Or the White Tigerzord from Power Rangers because hands down, my favourite Zord right there. There's no cultural appropriation here, it's just using a cool look to make cool ****, okay?

[Stahlflamme]

Have you seen the use of wicca in pop culture? And of course its stupid just like it is stupid to get into that point about a characters name that is not meant to represent a religion. When there are three or four other magic users running around with names with religious meaning, who are meant to be of that religion but don't represent it correctly in the slightest. That was my point there is no logic to get into any of that.

[Byakko]

Nobody has any problems with Marvel Thor not resembling real-life Thor (mostly the red hair and beard). Even less so when the MCU explicitly shows they're multi-racial and simply represent something similar to the Norse gods, but are obviously not THE Norse gods.

So what's the problem with any of the other magic-users in the Marvel universe just using the names of the inspired deities, but are obviously not related to the real-life deities? Heck Strange invokes so many different gods that range from Cthulhu to Hindu influenced, that I gave up trying to make sense of the cosmology shown in his books.

I'm probably the one person on this board who has prayed to something even remotely similar to the White Tiger god. There are many small shrines to a minor tiger god in temples I've been to. He is a protection deity in service to the larger temples, called something like Lao Hu Ye, or Old Tiger God. I have prayed to him when I've visited those temples because even though he's not the main deity, it's a form of courtesy and respect. Even outside of temples, you sometimes see small shrines to him erected near sites that wish to evoke his protection (even a parking lot).

So if there's one person on this board who can say if there's been 'offense' in anyway by White Tiger, it's me.

And there's been none.

If that's not good enough for some people who still want to go on about cultural appropriation, should I be surprised that, the one being 'defended', is being talked over?

[Fokken]

Alrightyroo.

Arcane?
Magus?
Artisan?


Some suggestions for alterna-code-names, for Monsieur Kaplan.
Personally, I find the exchange entertaining and appropriate. Fans have discussed it repeatedly, and it certainly is a valid question/concern.
I'm reminded of that whole Rachel Dolezal fiasco not long ago -- the white woman who passed herself off as a black woman while heading her local N.A.A.C.P chapter.

Me, personally? I don't have any issue with Wiccan being his chosen moniker. It rolls off the tongue just fine. I'm used to it. I never had any qualms with it. I found the urgency to edit from Asgardian very amusing but I suppose now that time has passed and he's matriculating with a different bunch of folks, it DOES make sense that someone would/could/DOES find the title inappropriate.
I'm very much interested and looking forward to the conclusion of this exchange.

[Confuzzled]

Wizard was taken by an gravity defying techno villain. And yes, a character that has been popular under the name Wiccan for ten years... lets change the name because it doesn't sound so catchy now, because obviously his fans all just hate it and want that people not familiar with the character to not find his earlier appeareances anymore. Plus the comic is pretty clear on the fact that this is about things being potentially insulting to Wiccans. Because if Ewing wants to change the name because he doesn't like it, but gives the cultural reasons in the story the implication is that he is an bigot who uses other cultures as justification to change things around he doesn't like. Hypocrisy 101. Thats a worse implication than him having a massive case of white guilt and feeling the misguided but real need to stand up for these discriminated people.

White tiger gets her power from a god that is a white tiger and I believe the cultural white tiger is some kind of guardian deity so the connection is a lot stronger thant just choosing a color and animal.

That other Wizard seems like a C-List Fantastic Four villain. With the FF themselves dispersed, what are the chances of seeing their C-List antagonists again? Anyway, my point is that Wiccan is not the closest thing to a male equivalent of a witch nor is it commonly used to denote a male/gender neutral magic user (mage, wizard, sorceror, warlock and even magician are more commonly used). It refers to real-life members observing a religion that Billy has nothing to do with. That is the point Power Man is bringing up. Ewing or Power Man are just pointing out that it is misleading, an irrelevant name and that there are chances that real-life Wiccans may take offence. All of which are true and none of which make him a hypocrite. Really, the only people making a big deal of this are the ones screaming "white guilt".

The White Tiger thing seems pretty minor to me as the white tiger god seems like such a small part of her character. Most people won't connect to a religion or a god or even a motif when they hear "white tiger", they will connect to the animal. Unlike "Wiccan" which only pertains to the religion. And if White Tiger actually prays to a white tiger god, then that is not really an instance of cultural appropriation either. It makes her an actual follower of a White Tiger god, while OTOH Billy is just using the term Wiccan to identify himself without bothering to have any connections to Wicca.

[Confuzzled]

Alrightyroo.

Arcane?
Magus?
Artisan?


Some suggestions for alterna-code-names, for Monsieur Kaplan.
Personally, I find the exchange entertaining and appropriate. Fans have discussed it repeatedly, and it certainly is a valid question/concern.
I'm reminded of that whole Rachel Dolezal fiasco not long ago -- the white woman who passed herself off as a black woman while heading her local N.A.A.C.P chapter.

Me, personally? I don't have any issue with Wiccan being his chosen moniker. It rolls off the tongue just fine. I'm used to it. I never had any qualms with it. I found the urgency to edit from Asgardian very amusing but I suppose now that time has passed and he's matriculating with a different bunch of folks, it DOES make sense that someone would/could/DOES find the title inappropriate.
I'm very much interested and looking forward to the conclusion of this exchange.

I think both Teddy and he could do with something more epic. What did you think of my earlier suggestion of Marvel Wizard for Billy? The Wizard Marvel could work too to keep with the "Captain Marvel/Ms. Marvel" nomenclature tradition. Billy adopting the name "Marvel" is also a sweet gesture and tribute to Teddy's family name. Kind of like the superhero take of taking the name of a person you are engaged too.

[Fokken]

I think both Teddy and he could do with something more epic. What did you think of my earlier suggestion of Marvel Wizard for Billy? The Wizard Marvel could work too to keep with the "Captain Marvel/Ms. Marvel" nomenclature tradition. Billy adopting the name "Marvel" is also a sweet gesture and tribute to Teddy's family name. Kind of like the superhero take of taking the name of a person you are engaged too.

I'm more fond of code names that are one-word or two-word-mergers (like Hawkeye) or if they're going to be two separate words, I prefer them limited to two syllables.

I know, that's really overly fussy but I just find it odd in combat/crisis situations when heroes have to call out these longer code names like "CAPTAIN MARVEL/AMERICA!" or whatever.
I mean, I think that we more commonly see heroes referring to other heroes by their civilian name anyhow (Carol!) or abbreviating the title to "Cap" etc.

Even with characters I absolutely adore, like Miss (Ms?) America Chavez -- I call her, simply, America.
Basically I prefer short names. <shrug>

[Confuzzled]

I'm more fond of code names that are one-word or two-word-mergers (like Hawkeye) or if they're going to be two separate words, I prefer them limited to two syllables.

I know, that's really overly fussy but I just find it odd in combat/crisis situations when heroes have to call out these longer code names like "CAPTAIN MARVEL/AMERICA!" or whatever.
I mean, I think that we more commonly see heroes referring to other heroes by their civilian name anyhow (Carol!) or abbreviating the title to "Cap" etc.

Even with characters I absolutely adore, like Miss (Ms?) America Chavez -- I call her, simply, America.
Basically I prefer short names. <shrug>

Well, that's understandable. I actually like the short monikers for the long(ish) codenames. What can be as delightful sounding as "Spidey" anyway? "Wiz" would suit Billy, future Sorceror Supreme of the Universe, just fine btw.

[Fokken]

Well, that's understandable. I actually like the short monikers for the long(ish) codenames. What can be as delightful sounding as "Spidey" anyway? "Wiz" would suit Billy, future Sorceror Supreme of the Universe, just fine btw.

I couldn't help making "urine" associations to him being called "Wiz".

Or the Michael Jackson Wizard of Oz adaptation. heh.

[Confuzzled]

I couldn't help making "urine" associations to him being called "Wiz".

Or the Michael Jackson Wizard of Oz adaptation. heh.

2015 calling Fokken.

[Habis]

And the Wiccan codenmae was a chosen because its the closest thing to a male term for witch.

Wiccan isn't a female term for witch. As a matter of fact, some Wicca sects are female-only, and most of them seem to give precedence to women.

As for the use of the word as codename: I don't like it when American comics use still practiced religions as inspiration. I think it is offensive to Hindus, Shintoists, Taoists, Yorubas... etc., when their religious figures are parodied in comics. What do you think it would happen if Marvel had Iron Man beat the tar out of Jesus Christ in a comic?

[Kieran_Frost]

It's an interesting idea. Power Man is someone who is invested in racial issues, so it makes sense that he would have a problem with cultural appropriation, even if it's not his culture. Beyond that, Wiccan's name is simply inaccurate. He's not Wiccan.

And Iron Man's suit hasn't been made of actual Iron in decades, Captain America (Falcon) is not a military ranked captain to my knowledge, Cyclops has two eyes and blasts out an X... many, many codenames are just that: cool codenames. It's about branding, not accurate reality. White Tiger isn't a tiger, Hawkeye isn't a bird, Melissa Gold can't sing, Sunspot has zero acne.