Wanda Maximoff: Scarlet Witch Appreciation 2020

[GenericUsername]

A lot of y'all seem to misunderstand what I'm trying to say I know back in the days of old Wanda was mostly known as an Avenger had some stories that I'll probably never read cause anything that looks like it could have been in a newspaper article I don't care to pick up.

Her most known stories to a modern reader like myself starts at House of M to present day invisible teacher. IMO I only find her interesting when she's actually against mutants it gave her something, even in Empyre where she was a whipping girl it was still something and I like that I think it could be a fun route to go going forward. But that's just my opinion at least she would be on panel *shrugs*

That's really a you problem, if you never want to go beyond your initial impression of the character to get to know her. But Marvel shouldn't have to cater to that myopic view.

[GenericUsername]

You know with Alfred Molina and Jaime Foxx coming back for Spider-Man 3, I think it is only a matter of time Tobey Maguire and Andrew Garfield will show up there too. I'm not a fan of this multiverse shit. I know it's not a popular opinion, but I think it diminishes the impact of the earlier Sony pictures. And trust me, I HATED the previous Sony Spider-Man flicks. Just as much as I LOATH the recent DCEU versions of Superman and Batman. But the reason I'm bringing this up in a Wanda thread is to ask do you really think Quicksilver will be coming back for WandaVision? We're like a month away from the first episode, and we haven't heard ANYTHING about ATJ being on set. And yet, we hear all sorts of information about people showing up in Hawkeye and Spider-Man 3 RIGHT after shooting starts. My opinion on Pietro is this. I feel it was a shame that Disney killed him off, and the way it was done was extremely lame. BUT I do understand WHY they had to do it. I really like Quicksilver but I have to say that I actually enjoy Wanda on her own in the MCU. I hope that view is not criticized too much. I think his death helped her character development a lot in spite of the fact she never mentioned him again. That being said, I think it would add a lot to WandaVision if Pietro shows up, but I don't think they're gonna either have Vision and/or Quicksilver stick around after it concludes. So, what I'm asking is do you think at this late stage in the game, ATJ is gonna make an appearance in WandaVision?

I'm gonna wait to see what they are actually doing, before judging.

[Journey]

I mean, this is an appreciation thread for the character so naturally most of the regulars are going to be people who know her from pre-House of M stories, because, as you say, she's gotten very little to do since House of M.

I don't think they'd make her more interesting by leaning into the anti-mutant stuff, because apart from everything it's not in-character for her - she was never remotely ashamed of being a mutant before House of M, so making her wipe out mutants makes about as much sense as having Wolverine wipe out mutants. It's not something the character would do, so her fans just discount it as bad writing.

There's nothing wrong with wanting to see a character you consider dull do something that you would find interesting. But the character's fans are never going to agree with that. Her fans just want to see her restored to the Avengers where she belongs, re-establish relationships with all the characters who haven't spoken to her on-panel in years, etc. There's nothing wrong with the character that more panel time wouldn't fix.

Which is cool I'm not expecting my opinion to influence anyone I'd just like something different from Wanda cause the character has potential.

And I'll be the first to admit HOM wasn't the best written story ever but to dismiss everything as just bad writing is a big part of the reason she is where she is now. Big push in TV/Movies but nonexistent in comics other than getting the magic spot in this book or that book. Their's so much baggage with character and people are afraid to address it she will never be able to move forward until it's addressed once & for all and for that to happen she has to interact with the people she hurt is what it is ultimately I just want her to do something of relevance not just appear for a couple issues get cancelled and be put back in Storage like Jessie from Toy Story.

[Journey]

That's really a you problem, if you never want to go beyond your initial impression of the character to get to know her. But Marvel shouldn't have to cater to that myopic view.

Yeah it is a me problem cause it's my opinion, and Marvel doesn't cater to any view that's why she's the new Invisible Woman!

[Albert1981]

I'm gonna wait to see what they are actually doing, before judging.

Well, your approach is very sensible and your answer is like a politician's: noncommittal. I did read what read how Benjamin Freed reacted to the news on social media (in regards to Doc Ock's purported return) and I TOTALLY agree with his sentiments:

"Alfred Molina’s tragic portrayal of Doc Ock is one of the biggest reasons why Raimi’s SPIDER-MAN 2 remains better than 90 percent of MCU movies. Bringing Molina back for a nostalgia play cheapens his original role and reveals a bit of creative bankruptcy on Feige’s part."

"If you’re genuinely excited about Marvel/Sony running a cheap nostalgia play because it's less difficult than coming up with a new adaptation of classic IP, you probably also thought Rise of Skywalker was worth it for the cameos."

"Anyway, you can all venmo me when SPIDER-MAN: INTO THE MULTIVERSE WITH ALL THE SPIDER-FRIENDS THAT 40-YEAR-OLD MEN REMEMBER FROM 2004 premieres in 2023 on whatever Sony’s streaming service is called."

Now, I don't share the view that the Raimi Spidey movies were superhero cinematic masterpieces. I thought they were campy and corny as hell and had WAY too many screaming women. I personally like the MCU's "grounded" and "realistic", yet fun approach to telling stories. And yes, that includes overloading the movies with quips. I thought so many non-MCU superhero movies and shows took themselves WAY too seriously and I thought that was ridiculous. I've NEVER liked the multiverse idea of bringing old characters (and actors and actresses) from other franchises (especially dead ones) into the main one. I think Doctor Strange could work if they bring in MONSTERS from other dimensions though (and I REALLY hope that's what Raimi and Feige are doing there), but to bring in alternate versions of Iron Man and Deadpool, that's just bullshit in my view. I truly hope Disney is not trying to steal a march on DC's multiverse ambitions. I think Marvel Studios trying to one-up DC's Batman v Superman with Captain America: Civil War was a mistake. I LIKE Feige's idea of LONG-FORM storytelling through Disney Plus. Hell, I'm FAR more interested in the shows then in the upcoming movies. I wholeheartedly embrace Marvel moving away from the traditional television "keep writing until the ratings drop too low" model. I think in SOME ways it's great for the television industry. I know it's a streaming thing, but I think a LOT of broadcast shows would have been excellent if they had wrapped up after 2-3 seasons. "Tell your story and finish up before things deteriorate" is a great model in my opinion. And unlike many old television shows, these Marvel series are based on SPECIFIC source material from the comic books. So they are time-limited (which I really like). It's not like in the olden days when you submitted scripts on spec. I think the ONLY scripted show that really works on network television these days is Law & Order: SVU. And that's because they base their episodes from crimes that are "ripped from the headlines". That kind of source material could sustain a show for decades and it has (because people commit crimes practically all the time). The Fugitive was based on allegedly based on the Sam Sheppard story, Kojak started out as a loose adaptation of the Career Girls Murders, and Law & Order: SVU AND other movies have covered stuff like the Roseann Quinn and Kitty Genovese cases several times. But comic book storylines are limited so that's why I don't think we'll get like seven seasons of Loki and Falcon and the Winter Soldier.

[GenericUsername]

Which is cool I'm not expecting my opinion to influence anyone I'd just like something different from Wanda cause the character has potential.

And I'll be the first to admit HOM wasn't the best written story ever but to dismiss everything as just bad writing is a big part of the reason she is where she is now. Big push in TV/Movies but nonexistent in comics other than getting the magic spot in this book or that book. Their's so much baggage with character and people are afraid to address it she will never be able to move forward until it's addressed once & for all and for that to happen she has to interact with the people she hurt is what it is ultimately I just want her to do something of relevance not just appear for a couple issues get cancelled and be put back in Storage like Jessie from Toy Story.

It was bad writing. How was it good? It didn't even give her narrative. We don't know why they don't have her in comics. And you don't have any better of an idea than we do.

[GenericUsername]

Well, your approach is very sensible and your answer is like a politician's: noncommittal. I did read what read how Benjamin Freed reacted to the news on social media (in regards to Doc Ock's purported return) and I TOTALLY agree with his sentiments:

"Alfred Molina’s tragic portrayal of Doc Ock is one of the biggest reasons why Raimi’s SPIDER-MAN 2 remains better than 90 percent of MCU movies. Bringing Molina back for a nostalgia play cheapens his original role and reveals a bit of creative bankruptcy on Feige’s part."

"If you’re genuinely excited about Marvel/Sony running a cheap nostalgia play because it's less difficult than coming up with a new adaptation of classic IP, you probably also thought Rise of Skywalker was worth it for the cameos."

"Anyway, you can all venmo me when SPIDER-MAN: INTO THE MULTIVERSE WITH ALL THE SPIDER-FRIENDS THAT 40-YEAR-OLD MEN REMEMBER FROM 2004 premieres in 2023 on whatever Sony’s streaming service is called."

Now, I don't share the view that the Raimi Spidey movies were superhero cinematic masterpieces. I thought they were campy and corny as hell and had WAY too many screaming women. I personally like the MCU's "grounded" and "realistic", yet fun approach to telling stories. And yes, that includes overloading the movies with quips. I thought so many non-MCU superhero movies and shows took themselves WAY too seriously and I thought that was ridiculous. I've NEVER liked the multiverse idea of bringing old characters (and actors and actresses) from other franchises (especially dead ones) into the main one. I think Doctor Strange could work if they bring in MONSTERS from other dimensions though (and I REALLY hope that's what Raimi and Feige are doing there), but to bring in alternate versions of Iron Man and Deadpool, that's just bullshit in my view. I truly hope Disney is not trying to steal a march on DC's multiverse ambitions. I think Marvel Studios trying to one-up DC's Batman v Superman with Captain America: Civil War was a mistake. I LIKE Feige's idea of LONG-FORM storytelling through Disney Plus. Hell, I'm FAR more interested in the shows then in the upcoming movies. I wholeheartedly embrace Marvel moving away from the traditional television "keep writing until the ratings drop too low" model. I think in SOME ways it's great for the television industry. I know it's a streaming thing, but I think a LOT of broadcast shows would have been excellent if they had wrapped up after 2-3 seasons. "Tell your story and finish up before things deteriorate" is a great model in my opinion. And unlike many old television shows, these Marvel series are based on SPECIFIC source material from the comic books. So they are time-limited (which I really like). It's not like in the olden days when you submitted scripts on spec. I think the ONLY scripted show that really works on network television these days is Law & Order: SVU. And that's because they base their episodes from crimes that are "ripped from the headlines". That kind of source material could sustain a show for decades and it has (because people commit crimes practically all the time). The Fugitive was based on allegedly based on the Sam Sheppard story, Kojak started out as a loose adaptation of the Career Girls Murders, and Law & Order: SVU AND other movies have covered stuff like the Roseann Quinn and Kitty Genovese cases several times. But comic book storylines are limited so that's why I don't think we'll get like seven seasons of Loki and Falcon and the Winter Soldier.

More like a fan that has liked more in the MCU than disliked so willing to give it the chance it's earned. If things change, I can easily go watch other things.

[gurkle]

And I'll be the first to admit HOM wasn't the best written story ever but to dismiss everything as just bad writing is a big part of the reason she is where she is now. Big push in TV/Movies but nonexistent in comics other than getting the magic spot in this book or that book. Their's so much baggage with character and people are afraid to address it she will never be able to move forward until it's addressed once & for all and for that to happen she has to interact with the people she hurt is what it is ultimately I just want her to do something of relevance not just appear for a couple issues get cancelled and be put back in Storage like Jessie from Toy Story.

The fact that she's nonexistent in comics is frustrating to her fans, but I don't think baggage from House of M has much to do with it. It didn't come up during the year she had a solo book. If writers and editors want to use her, they will. Now, maybe they don't want to use her because they only know her from House of M, but that's not going to change if they do yet another story about the fallout of House of M.

It would be nice if they finally created a definitive retcon showing that it wasn't Wanda who did "no more mutants," that she was possessed or mind-controlled at the time. But a story that suggests she actually did it would just make it worse, since there's no way someone can be a hero after that. Either say she didn't do it, or ignore it as a bit of bad writing, but the character who existed in the comics from 1964 to 2004 couldn't have done that, so it's just another bit of bad writing that should be ignored, like Batman using a gun.

Wanda needs to interact again with the friends and other people she had history with from 1964 to 2004: Carol, Tony, Steve... so many characters she goes way back with and almost never talks to. Involving her in another mutant story, as Hickman may be planning to do, would just make it harder for that to happen; it would once again make her defined by something she couldn't have done if she were written in character.

[Journey]

It was bad writing. How was it good? It didn't even give her narrative. We don't know why they don't have her in comics. And you don't have any better of an idea than we do.

Bad writing to you I actually thought it was an interesting read here and there like I said it wasn't the best but it had potential IMO I understood her narrative perfectly her kids were dead and she lost her mind from grief & under the manipulations of her brother made a world were people she loved at the time could be happy simple really *shrugs*

And I do have an idea hence why I stated it so feel free to speak for yourself and yourself alone, that being said it's just a theory but IMO it holds validity.

[Journey]

The fact that she's nonexistent in comics is frustrating to her fans, but I don't think baggage from House of M has much to do with it. It didn't come up during the year she had a solo book. If writers and editors want to use her, they will. Now, maybe they don't want to use her because they only know her from House of M, but that's not going to change if they do yet another story about the fallout of House of M.

It would be nice if they finally created a definitive retcon showing that it wasn't Wanda who did "no more mutants," that she was possessed or mind-controlled at the time. But a story that suggests she actually did it would just make it worse, since there's no way someone can be a hero after that. Either say she didn't do it, or ignore it as a bit of bad writing, but the character who existed in the comics from 1964 to 2004 couldn't have done that, so it's just another bit of bad writing that should be ignored, like Batman using a gun.

Wanda needs to interact again with the friends and other people she had history with from 1964 to 2004: Carol, Tony, Steve... so many characters she goes way back with and almost never talks to. Involving her in another mutant story, as Hickman may be planning to do, would just make it harder for that to happen; it would once again make her defined by something she couldn't have done if she were written in character.

I'm actually fine with them retconning no more mutants I will say if they do it hopefully it's better than, "Doom did it" which had no merrit and comes off as a cop out. Ultimately it just needs to be addressed once and for all so she can move forward.

[GenericUsername]

Bad writing to you I actually thought it was an interesting read here and there like I said it wasn't the best but it had potential IMO I understood her narrative perfectly her kids were dead and she lost her mind from grief & under the manipulations of her brother made a world were people she loved at the time could be happy simple really *shrugs*

And I do have an idea hence why I stated it so feel free to speak for yourself and yourself alone, that being said it's just a theory but IMO it holds validity.

It's not just to me but every Wanda fan in here. Her used as a plot device and not even in the story until the end was garbage. Her narrative wasn't even that. She had already dealt with the loss of her kids 15 years before hand in real life time, some odd time in the sliding timescale. It makes no sense for her to suddenly forget her kids again and then go through another meltdown because Bendis didn't read the rest of Darker than Scarlet.

You are trying to convince me of something without fully understanding it. And not even wanting to attempt to do that.

I don't speak for myself. You are the lone wolf here.

[Tmacaoni]

Bad writing to you I actually thought it was an interesting read here and there like I said it wasn't the best but it had potential IMO I understood her narrative perfectly her kids were dead and she lost her mind from grief & under the manipulations of her brother made a world were people she loved at the time could be happy simple really *shrugs*

And I do have an idea hence why I stated it so feel free to speak for yourself and yourself alone, that being said it's just a theory but IMO it holds validity.

I thought it was a good part of her story. Even if we were to ignore the didn't like being a mutant thing till HOM, its not like before that she was some mutant cheerleader. The story hit a lot of beats and I empathized with the character. She believed her kids to not exist and that off beat comment from Wasp is what really got her going. She reached a breaking point and with a character like her who has no definitive powerset anything could happen. After all was said and done and a little guesstamation by Pietro, she then gave everyone what they wanted in life (creating the Layla failsafe in the process) and even that wasn't good enough.

So now I feel is the time for her to get her life back. I mean the X-characters have a way to bring back the dead now...holding this grudge is kinda silly. Especially considering you have a character on the Quiet Council that did the same exact thing she did before making decisions on important mutant situations. WTH?

[Journey]

It's not just to me but every Wanda fan in here. Her used as a plot device and not even in the story until the end was garbage. Her narrative wasn't even that. She had already dealt with the loss of her kids 15 years before hand in real life time, some odd time in the sliding timescale. It makes no sense for her to suddenly forget her kids again and then go through another meltdown because Bendis didn't read the rest of Darker than Scarlet.

You are trying to convince me of something without fully understanding it. And not even wanting to attempt to do that.

I don't speak for myself. You are the lone wolf here.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything you are responding to me and asking questions and are getting a response I don't care what you believe I'm speaking for me in response to you, you're the one making this into a debate *shrugs*

[GenericUsername]

I thought it was a good part of her story. Even if we were to ignore the didn't like being a mutant thing till HOM, its not like before that she was some mutant cheerleader. The story hit a lot of beats and I empathized with the character. She believed her kids to not exist and that off beat comment from Wasp is what really got her going. She reached a breaking point and with a character like her who has no definitive powerset anything could happen. After all was said and done and a little guesstamation by Pietro, she then gave everyone what they wanted in life (creating the Layla failsafe in the process) and even that wasn't good enough.

So now I feel is the time for her to get her life back. I mean the X-characters have a way to bring back the dead now...holding this grudge is kinda silly. Especially considering you have a character on the Quiet Council that did the same exact thing she did before making decisions on important mutant situations. WTH?

The reason the story is bad is it ignored all canon for the character before. She had already remembered her kids. She didn't need Wasp to remind her of that. It was already something she worked through.

So for Wanda fans, we saw a sudden reset button without explanation of point a to b. And a story that is focused more on other characters. Wanda is in a coma for most of it. And she also wasn't present until the end pf AD.

It destroyed the character permanently. She's never recovered.

[GenericUsername]

I'm not trying to convince you of anything you are responding to me and asking questions and are getting a response I don't care what you believe I'm speaking for me in response to you, you're the one making this into a debate *shrugs*

Well good then don't try to make it seem like I alone hate the story.