All-New Marvel is Starting to make me All-Pissed

[Kieran_Frost]

Why can't people enjoy the new legacy heroes AND be dissatisfied with the way the classic heroes are treated? I love almost all of the new legacy characters (I think TA Hulk and Miles Morales are the only ones I dislike, and the latter is most due to bendis' obsession with his pet and trying to put over the character on the real spiderman).

However, that's not to say I don't have my issues with them. Jane Foster as Thor is probably in my top 5 if not top 3 books right now, but it does kind of bother me that she is "Thor". I don't care what you tell me, his name is THOR Odinson, not just the odinson, just like loki is called lok, and angela is called angela, not odindotter.

Miles Morales could be cool, but I don't like that bendis writes him like he's the second coming of Christ and that he is called spiderman. The two names thing works for some charcaters (hawkeye, because kate took over while he was gone, and just didn't wanna stop when he came back, Captain America, because he is more of a symbol, and the two current captain America's are two different representations for a country that is a giant melting pot), but its kind of lame in the sense of spiderman. It made sense for him to be spiderman in the UU but we have a spiderman. I get that he is supposed to be telling "classic" spiderman style stories, but I'm still not a fan.

Theres this huge divide between marvel fans growing where if you hate the new characters, you're a racist, or if you advocate for all the new characters and want the old ones gone you're a PC SJW. Like I said, I'm loving a lot of these new characters and stories, but despite that, I'd be lying if I said it didn't feel at least a bit forced. But just because I have zero interest in reading about RiRi Williams, doesn't mean I hate black people or women. I don't care if you was a gay transgender middle easter cripple, that's not why I don't wanna read about her. I don't want to read about her because she's been around for, what, 5 issues? Why is she all of the sudden so important? She isn't really, she is part of an agenda.

Errrr... can we edit this to be less offensive?

[Iconic]

I don't want to read about Steve, but I do want to read about Sam. (Hydra-Steve is kinda interesting) I'm tired of Peter, but I can't get enough Miles. Tony I like, but I'm excited to see him in a new scenario.

Hey! Guess what? We all get what we want! Woo-hoo!

[regg215]

While I am not completely happy with what Marvel is doing, it is hard to argue with their results. They constantly lead the market in sales, so obliviously fans can't be that angry over the changes otherwise the sales would suffer. Ultimately Marvel has decided to cater to fans who are not buying books, in an effort to get them interested in comics and get them to buy the new characters. They continually makes announcements on changes to characters that drive headlines on shows like the View or on CNN and that gets people talking. Marvel expects that they can make all the changes they want and the long time fan base will still buy the comic out of loyalty. It's hard to argue against this strategy because it has worked for them so far.

I also have to admit that, while I am displeased to see some of my favorite characters get diminished, Marvel's aim to bring diversity to the market is an admirable goal. I initially really disliked the changes because it replaced Thor, but I have seen the new characters get people to read comics who had never picked one up before and that is nice to see. Both my sister and my girlfriend never picked up comics and always complained that I read them, but when they found out that both Thor and Wolverine were being replaced by women it made them interested and got them to pick up the books. Both of them continue to buy those titles and it has driven them to seek out other characters like Black Widow and Spider-Woman as a result. I may dislike that Odinson is no longer the "main" Thor anymore but it is good that Marvel is trying to reach out to new fans.

[Mr MajestiK]

While I am not completely happy with what Marvel is doing, it is hard to argue with their results. They constantly lead the market in sales, so obliviously fans can't be that angry over the changes otherwise the sales would suffer. Ultimately Marvel has decided to cater to fans who are not buying books, in an effort to get them interested in comics and get them to buy the new characters. They continually makes announcements on changes to characters that drive headlines on shows like the View or on CNN and that gets people talking. Marvel expects that they can make all the changes they want and the long time fan base will still buy the comic out of loyalty. It's hard to argue against this strategy because it has worked for them so far.

I also have to admit that, while I am displeased to see some of my favorite characters get diminished, Marvel's aim to bring diversity to the market is an admirable goal. I initially really disliked the changes because it replaced Thor, but I have seen the new characters get people to read comics who had never picked one up before and that is nice to see. Both my sister and my girlfriend never picked up comics and always complained that I read them, but when they found out that both Thor and Wolverine were being replaced by women it made them interested and got them to pick up the books. Both of them continue to buy those titles and it has driven them to seek out other characters like Black Widow and Spider-Woman as a result. I may dislike that Odinson is no longer the "main" Thor anymore but it is good that Marvel is trying to reach out to new fans.

Yes. Shouldn't there be a moratorium on these "I'm not racist but Marvel's really pissing me off with their diversity" threads? How many new threads on the same topic do we need where angry fans vent that their favorite characters have been stolen/replaced with females, people of color, etc.?

As a longtime Marvel fan who really loves current Marvel, it should be pointed out that these characters who have supposedly been taken away are still in play. Thor/Odinson will have his own book soon, Steve Rogers is still Cap, Tony Stark may soon step down as Iron Man but it's a safe bet that Marvel has big plans for him, Bruce Banner might be dead but solicits already hint that he may return soon courtesy of The Hand, and Wolverine might be dead but Old Man Logan should be old school enough to satisfy longtime fans looking for the "real" Wolverine.

If you really care about these characters and have been following them for years, I'd think it'd be interesting (as it is to me) to see them involved in stories that haven't been told a million times already. I'm excited to read The Unworthy Thor, I'm loving the Hydra Cap storyline, I'm eager to see where Tony's story is going, I'm excited to see how Bruce will return and what stories will follow, and Old Man Logan is a great Wolverine book - one that feels both classic and totally new at the same time.

Every fan has a right to their likes and dislikes but as someone who's been reading Marvel for decades, I love that change is a constant with these characters. It doesn't alienate me - it keeps me interested.

[skyvolt2000]

Why can't people enjoy the new legacy heroes AND be dissatisfied with the way the classic heroes are treated?

Because folks want to CHERRY PICK their dislike.

When it's Winter Solider taking over for Steve-no one cares and that story is giving the benefit of the doubt without pages and threads of complaints.

When it's Sam Wilson-there is an issue.

Miles Morales could be cool, but I don't like that bendis writes him like he's the second coming of Christ and that he is called spiderman. It made sense for him to be spiderman in the UU but we have a spiderman. I get that he is supposed to be telling "classic" spiderman style stories, but I'm still not a fan.

Why is Miles an issue? How does he prevent anyone from reading about Peter Parker? How does Miles Morales and his 50 solo issues undo 1000+ Peter Parker stories?

Theres this huge divide between marvel fans growing where if you hate the new characters, you're a racist, or if you advocate for all the new characters and want the old ones gone you're a PC SJW.

No the divide is when it's a minority, LGBT & female-EVERYBODY has an issue.

We don't see this behavior when white straight males are used or introduced.


NO one has said get rid of anyone-that falls at the feet of Marvel's staff.


When Marvel has tossed out new POC-I see essays screaming that character has no business being around.

When Marvel TRIES to include POC in books-More essays about why that chracter is so offensive that no one can read the book. Calls for a boycott of the book over that one chracter starts up.

Folks who have read whatever for 10+ years are willing to QUIT a over minority in a book-folks who have support that book through HORRIBLE stories can't support a book over one POC (yes Batman with Duke Thomas I am talking about YOU).

Every complaint thread we have seen have constantly target minorities-especially black ones, LGBT & certain women.

Did Black Knight & Starbrand not have books? Drax? Groot? Rocket Raccoon? Vision? Starlord? Moon Knight?

Are they not members of the All New Marvel?


What are folks looking on the outside suppose to think if all they see are complaints targeting a group with no mention of story content?

[Pat Thomas]

Hey thanks for posting people. I apologize to come off racist I guess that's just how people will see it. I think a few people understand where I'm coming from and decided to post about that so I appreciate that even if they don't share the opinion. I'll probably keep using this site to talk comics but some of these replies sure are frustrating. This country is getting frustrating. Aren't allowed to dislike something diverse just because you dislike it, nope it means you're racist ..

Unfortunately, if you're unhappy about Marvel's current direction, this isn't the place to air your grievances. You're expected to keep your thoughts
to yourself if they don't fit the current political climate. Even some of the people attacking you understand in their heart why you started this thread,
but are duty-bound to twist your words into something you didn't actually say. Time will tell whether Marvel is handling their big diversity push
correctly. This same conversation is occurring on every other site relating to comics and pop culture and at comic shops around the country. Marvel
tries to downplay it and people here just deny it, but a lot of dedicated readers are fed up. The common response is to tell them to read back issues,
move on, or to get with the program. More and more I'm seeing people leaving who don't really want to, but feel almost forced out because the things
they cared for are gone or changed into something different than what they want to read about. I've said before that if Marvel is pushing out readers
who are at their lcs every Wednesday picking up a stack of their books by alienating them, these people won't come back. The fact that people care
enough to vent and try to get reassurance that they're not alone, instead of just moving on, illustrates that they don't really even want to quit, but are
almost to that point. The responses they get here don't do anything to help the situation either. More power to Marvel if they think they can survive and
thrive without these people, but unless they go about such radical changes differently than they have been, that's where they're headed.

[SeanBansheeCassidy]

Errrr... can we edit this to be less offensive?

If this is an intentional joke its funny. If its an accidental joke its even funnier.

[Danileriver23]

Why is Miles an issue? How does he prevent anyone from reading about Peter Parker? How does Miles Morales and his 50 solo issues undo 1000+ Peter Parker stories?

Admittedly, a lot of my negative bias about Miles comes from my distaste with bendis catering to him all the. I picked up the first couple of issues of Spider-Man and in the first or second issue, Miles effortlessly takes out Black Heart, who was able to take down Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, AND Peter Parker. He even tried to kill Peter Parker during Civil War and is always claiming that Miles Morales is THE spider-man.

I never said that miles morales stories undid peter parker either, nor did I say that they deter you from enjoying Peter parker. I just feel Miles Morales works in a world where peter parker died and he became the NEW spiderman, but not so well in a world where spiderman is alive and kicking, or maybe he should've adopted a new name.

And regardless if people ONLY have problems if a minority takes the place of a SWM, that's not the point I was making. I was just saying that just because someone doesn't like the changes doesn't mean that they're a racist or if someone is glad that these new legacy heroes are replacing the old guard. Since I dislike Miles Morales, does that mean I hate black and or Puerto Rican people?

[ZephyrSurf]

One thing I've always hated about these discussions is they focus on such superficial issues and never address something so engrained that it should be the priority of the reader.

Like nobody ever asks

"Is the Book good?"


It's always "mantle changes, You're a bigot, this isn't my superhero, this is my superhero, pandering, pandering and more pandering" as the points of discussion

but it's never "So how is the quality of these stories?"

I thought the first Angela story was fantastic(the secret wars tie in even better than that) but the ANAD was utter banal drek.

Ultimates is absolutely god damn jack kirby cosmic fantastic

Squadron Supreme is Seinfeld the comic(A comic about nothing) when it shouldn't be.

All-New Wolverine is a masterpiece, OML is just as good and their tonalities are completely different

Scarlet Witch is beautiful writing wise

Vision is one of the best Marvel runs in its entire existence.

All New Hawkeye did an utter diservice to both parties in it especially coming off Fraction's run.

I think Gwenpool, Howard and Squirrel Girl are all hilarious in all totally different ways. I don't think Hellcat is funny at all and fails to grasp that sensibility that Squirrel Girl does(Even if its art is better).

I think both Cap books are really well done(Sam's more than Steve's, but they're both written strongly)

I find uncanny Avengers really aimless, but finally reaching a point of understanding with the ultron arc, and it's really good(So it's finally paying off)


I love Spider-gwen

I detest Web Warriors

Spider-man has been eh
Amazing Spider-Man is ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Spider-man/Deadpool is a beauty to behold

I'm not enamored by any of the X-men books. Uncanny has been the best, but I keep thinking it'd be far better as just a pure Magneto book. Extraordinary is basically a Magik solo with those other losers tacked on in which case i'm just like "Just give me a magik solo" I don't read All New.

ANAD Avengers is there. It's a book that exists.

I don't know how I feel about New Avengers. When its great its GREAT but when it drags... it draaaaaaaags

Invincible Iron-Man started strong.... then went right off the rails.

[BFF]

Yes. Shouldn't there be a moratorium on these "I'm not racist but Marvel's really pissing me off with their diversity" threads? How many new threads on the same topic do we need where angry fans vent that their favorite characters have been stolen/replaced with females, people of color, etc.?

I would say at least half of CBR discussions (or comic book message board discussions in general) are repetition or re-hashes of previous discussions. This particular topic is nothing special in that regard.

[Cloudman]

Squadron Supreme is Seinfeld the comic(A comic about nothing) when it shouldn't be.

That's just about the best way of describing that comic. I was hoping for a pretty grand story about the internal politics of the Squadron, and what we got was just... meh.

[teamhawkeyes]

One thing I've always hated about these discussions is they focus on such superficial issues and never address something so engrained that it should be the priority of the reader.

Like nobody ever asks

"Is the Book good?"


It's always "mantle changes, You're a bigot, this isn't my superhero, this is my superhero, pandering, pandering and more pandering" as the points of discussion

but it's never "So how is the quality of these stories?"

I thought the first Angela story was fantastic(the secret wars tie in even better than that) but the ANAD was utter banal drek.

Ultimates is absolutely god damn jack kirby cosmic fantastic

Squadron Supreme is Seinfeld the comic(A comic about nothing) when it shouldn't be.

All-New Wolverine is a masterpiece, OML is just as good and their tonalities are completely different

Scarlet Witch is beautiful writing wise

Vision is one of the best Marvel runs in its entire existence.

All New Hawkeye did an utter diservice to both parties in it especially coming off Fraction's run.

I think Gwenpool, Howard and Squirrel Girl are all hilarious in all totally different ways. I don't think Hellcat is funny at all and fails to grasp that sensibility that Squirrel Girl does(Even if its art is better).

I think both Cap books are really well done(Sam's more than Steve's, but they're both written strongly)

I find uncanny Avengers really aimless, but finally reaching a point of understanding with the ultron arc, and it's really good(So it's finally paying off)


I love Spider-gwen

I detest Web Warriors

Spider-man has been eh
Amazing Spider-Man is ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Spider-man/Deadpool is a beauty to behold

I'm not enamored by any of the X-men books. Uncanny has been the best, but I keep thinking it'd be far better as just a pure Magneto book. Extraordinary is basically a Magik solo with those other losers tacked on in which case i'm just like "Just give me a magik solo" I don't read All New.

ANAD Avengers is there. It's a book that exists.

I don't know how I feel about New Avengers. When its great its GREAT but when it drags... it draaaaaaaags

Invincible Iron-Man started strong.... then went right off the rails.

I agree. No one really discusses the actual quality of these books, and that's a shame. But I do think that outside of quality alone, the discussion for diversity is still important and worth having. That being said:

I absolutely love All-New Inhumans and Uncanny Inhumans (aside from that boring Medua/Johnny/Crystal two-parter). The new characters they're using and the global feel of All-New is awesome. Everyone complains about the MU being so NYC-focused, and yet ANI went totally ignored despite it being international. What a shame. It's so good.

Black Panther is fine. I'm enjoying the supporting characters more than I am T'Challa which is a problem, but at least we're getting World of Wakanda out of it.

Captain Marvel has been fun. Nothing groundbreaking, nothing bad. The Gages are making Carol less insane than Bendis is with all this CWII stuff.

Ms. Marvel is perfect. Always has been. I love it so much.

New Avengers is all over the place in the best of ways. Switching the focal character every other issue or so is keeping it very large-scale interesting. Ewing is also crushing it on The Ultimates. Looove that book.

I also really loved Angela: Queen of Hel. Well, the first 5 issues anyway. The last 2 were mediocre.

[ZephyrSurf]

I don't think there's anything wrong with discussing diversity. But I feel when people do it, more often than not, they use it as a marker of quality rather than talk about diversity in and of itself.

More often than not, people bitch over the book having a particular person of a certain skin tone or gender or sexual orientation than about the merits of the book itself. And then they conflate those gender/orientation/race issues into markers of quality than of diversity.

So it ends up being "It's diverse so it's bad" or "It's the same so its good" rather than "It's diverse and also is good" or "It's the same and bad." or "The same and good" or "diverse and also bad."

[penthotal]

This is why DC's Rebirth is selling better than what Marvel is putting out. Marvel is trying to replace the old guard with something "all new". While DC is Bringing back the old guard. Wally and Barry, Pre-Crisis Superman, Dr. Manhattan... I would much rather read about characters I know than Marvel's attempt at PC replacements.

I think Marvel should be very afraid with current development in comics, Intresst for new Marvel comics are dropping hard while intresst in DC Comics after Rebirth keeps getting higher and higher+ it does not help that Marvel is already at war with their x-fans

DC has already relaunched all its best selling characters and even this way Marvel has kept a generous lead in both market and dollar share. People should learn to read data and not following article headlines hype. DC is having a successful relaunch but not at the expense of Marvel, and even putting out a lot of issues 1 for months at a lower price than the competition Marvel still has a good 10%+ points advantage. DC won't get more share in the next months because after the #1 the books obviously won't be able to keep selling 150-300k per issue.

[UltimateTy]

Rebirth is selling mainly because DC is basically giving their books away at $2.99 (and with subscriber discounts at most comic shops, you're talking probably $2.50).

While I'm sure many DC fans are happy to have the old guard back, DC's approach is, ultimately, a dead end. Let me explain:

One, they're going to have to raise the price eventually (I'm guessing six to seven months in) and that's going to kill their sales. DC has given their readers the idea that they can sell their books at a cheaper rate and when they go back on that, a lot of readers will just jump ship. They're taking a loss on their books right now in order to entice readers but they'd be better off being honest about what price point they can survive at. If anyone thinks DC plans on - or financially would be able to - keep their books at $2.99 for too long, they'll be in for a rude awakening on that front.

Two, catering to the old fans may make the old fans happy but it's a short sighted approach with short term goals. Marvel is building a new generation of readers while DC is just playing to the same aging fan base.

Rebirth doesn't interest me because it's just the same old, same old. Thumbing through the recent Batman issues, I just couldn't justify buying them. When I see Batman with Gordon on the rooftop next to the Bat-signal and talking to Alfred in the Bat-cave, I'm like...I've been here before. Like, a hundred thousand times over. It'd be like if in Amazing Spider-Man, Peter was still selling pictures to the Bugle and meeting the gang down at the Coffee Bean. It's boring. If what you primarily want from following comics is to exist in a perpetual bubble of nostalgia, isn't it cheaper to just re-read your back issues?

If DC fans are enjoying Rebirth, that's great. It's not for me, though. I'd rather follow a comic universe that is evolving and moving forward, not living in denial of the future.

Agreed. The rebirth relaunch actually made me drop the Superman books for the first time since I got into comics

I may not like everything from all new marvel (Riri Williams and Waid on the Avengers/ Champions) but at least they aren't playing it safe.