Superior Spider-Man: Was it Rape?

[Carabas]

I disagree with you there. Clark Kent is an alias of an alien, Kal El, who is pretending to be human.

I believe a better analogy with Otto would be if I got cosmetic surgery to look like...say, Johnny Depp for example and even changed my name to Johnny Depp. Then met, feel in love, and had sex with a woman who never heard of Johnny Depp.

But, crucially, had heard of psychopathic supervillain Doctor Octopus, and did not like him one bit.

[CentralPower]

I don't really see how that makes sense; Doc Ock was passing himself as someone else. Marconi didn't have the full story. Nothing about the situation comes across as remotely okay.

Even if it's technically legal, I find the whole business disgusting. (It's because of stuff like this that I quit reading SSM after giving it a shot.)

Slott never said that it was okay. Not sure how this plot point is problematic. (If Slott said it was okay, that would be an issue.)


As for Otto's identity, he never really misrepresented himself to Marconi. He had assumed a new life, and had every intention of maintaining it. He was using Parker's identity, and actually improving it (by going to school and getting a better job). Marconi saw what she was getting.

But, crucially, had heard of psychopathic supervillain Doctor Octopus, and did not like him one bit.

But, does having a secret identity (as Parker did when dating Gwen Stacy) always raise this sort of question?

[Tuck]

. a court ruled tomatoes be seen as a vegetable despite the scientific fact it is fruit after all.

I'm going to be that guy and point out that it's both. "Vegetable" is a culinary term, and a tomato is merely also a fruit.

[CentralPower]

A friend of mine is a lawyer, and I ran this by him.

He suggested felony murder as being a good analogy for what happened with Parker. Felony murder is defined (short version) as a death caused during/by a felony. For example, if a witness has a heart attack as a result of seeing a crime, the suspect is probably going to be charged with that death (even if they did not intend or could not have reasonably anticipated said death). It will vary state by state. But, the general analogy works.

In this case, Otto and Marconi would be sleeping together. Parker would be forced in to a non-consenting role, as anything Otto and Marconi do with each other is being done to Parker. Marconi would have no guilty knowledge of Parker's existence, nor of any other crimes committed leading up to their encounter. However, Otto would know full well what he did leading up to the encounter. While he may honestly believe that he had over-written Parker (effectively killing him), Otto would still be causing a situation that led to Parker being raped.

Not perfect, but a workable analogy.

[Carabas]

A friend of mine is a lawyer, and I ran this by him.

He suggested felony murder as being a good analogy for what happened with Parker. Felony murder is defined (short version) as a death caused during/by a felony. For example, if a witness has a heart attack as a result of seeing a crime, the suspect is probably going to be charged with that death (even if they did not intend or could not have reasonably anticipated said death). It will vary state by state. But, the general analogy works.

In this case, Otto and Marconi would be sleeping together. Parker would be forced in to a non-consenting role, as anything Otto and Marconi do with each other is being done to Parker. Marconi would have no guilty knowledge of Parker's existence, nor of any other crimes committed leading up to their encounter. However, Otto would know full well what he did leading up to the encounter. While he may honestly believe that he had over-written Parker (effectively killing him), Otto would still be causing a situation that led to Parker being raped.

Not perfect, but a workable analogy.

This thread doesn't care about Parker.

Did Octavius rape the woman?

And the law says "yes, or no, depends on what state you're in".

In case of the state of New York, no, Ock is on the clear, legally. The State of New York kinda sucks.

[CentralPower]

Even by using the false identity standard, I am not sure that Otto raped Anna. (Unless of course we want to apply this standard to comic in general, which is going to take us to all sorts of awful places.)

When Otto first met Anna, he had more or less usurped Parker's identity and life. He had even taken steps to make that life his own, dare we say....superior. Otto had every intention of using the Peter Parker name, identity, professional standing and toothbrush for the long haul. (Yes, he murdered Parker and was committing some other crimes. But, work with it.) Otto was effectively becoming Parker.

Anna had apparently never met Parker before Otto had usurped Parker's identity. The man she met was the man she met. (Call him "Superior", just to keep it easy.)

Superior defended Anna from thugs. Superior and Anna began a relationship. Superior's affection and respect for Anna were real, and he always presented as the person he was living as. Otto never intended to stop being Parker. He could have told Anna about his secret identity as Spider-Man. But, how many supers do that on the first few dates? He might have told her about his criminal past. But, that is the past and maybe he did not feel a need to discuss it with her. By the time Otto met Anna, he was beginning a new life, one he honestly wanted to share with her.

[Michael Watkins]

This thread doesn't care about Parker.

Did Octavius rape the woman?

And the law says "yes, or no, depends on what state you're in".

In case of the state of New York, no, Ock is on the clear, legally. The State of New York kinda sucks.

no it doesn't. and I let it slide that people were calling me mind-numbingly stupid. but what all of you smart people are forgetting is that Anna didn't know Peter before Otto took over. she fell in love with Otto Octavius. he just looked better than he normally does. lying to a woman about your profession isn't rape. it's deception. it might be morally repugnant. but it ain't rape.

[Michael Watkins]

Well, if someone wore a costume disguising their face and went up to a girl and said they were her boyfriend, and then had sex with her, that would be considered rape.

So is this. Peter's body was a disguise for Otto.

so if a woman stuffed her bra or wore fake eyelashes, and seduced you, that's rape? what if Otto, instead of swapping bodies, had simply put his mind into a body that looked like Peter's?

[Carabas]

no it doesn't. and I let it slide that people were calling me mind-numbingly stupid. but what all of you smart people are forgetting is that Anna didn't know Peter before Otto took over. she fell in love with Otto Octavius. he just looked better than he normally does. lying to a woman about your profession isn't rape. it's deception. it might be morally repugnant. but it ain't rape.

When Otto first met Anna, he had more or less usurped Parker's identity and life. He had even taken steps to make that life his own, dare we say....superior. Otto had every intention of using the Peter Parker name, identity, professional standing and toothbrush for the long haul. (Yes, he murdered Parker and was committing some other crimes. But, work with it.) Otto was effectively becoming Parker.

Yeah, it doesn't matter if she knew Peter Parker or not.

She knew of Otto Octavius, psychopathic supervillain, and would have run out of the room screaming for help if he had looked like himself.

[Michael Watkins]

i worry for the people who will come in to contact with everyone who voted "no" in real life, I truly do.

that's not something to brag about.

Imagine you go to a doctor, are put to sleep, and the doctor "fiddled" with you. That's the closest real life scenario to Peter.

that's a laughably bad analogy. when a doctor "puts you to sleep," they eliminate consent. Anna Maria didn't have anything forced upon her. Otto was quite respectful. he was just better looking than he normally is. want to take a shot at another analogy?

Imagine two identical twins, one a well respected member of society, one a known murderer. The nurderer poses as his brother in order to seduce a woman. That's what happened to Anna. Everyone is forgetting that even though she had never heard of Peter Parker, she HAD heard of Otto and would NEVER have slept with him if she'd known.

well lookee there! you made an even worse analogy. hearing about someone and knowing them intimately isn't remotely the same thing. she got a chance to know Otto w/o any element of prejudice. and she deemed him bangable. mind you, it wasn't even his body that was the selling point. and how do we know that she wouldn't have slept with him; if she had met him as Otto Octavius? it's not like Otto's undatable. I can rattle off the names of 3 women who fell for him; prior to Anna Maria.

So yes, it's fictional rape on both counts. End of discussion, as they say.

thanks thread God for telling everyone when they could stop discussing such a contentious issue.

[Michael Watkins]

Yeah, it doesn't matter if she knew Peter Parker or not.

She knew of Otto Octavius, psychopathic supervillain, and would have run out of the room screaming for help if he had looked like himself.

prove it....................

[boots]

I'm going to be that guy and point out that it's both. "Vegetable" is a culinary term, and a tomato is merely also a fruit.

ha, yeah...those two definitions were exactly what the case debated. vegetable won out, for tax purposes.

[RD!]

that's not something to brag about.



that's a laughably bad analogy. when a doctor "puts you to sleep," they eliminate consent. Anna Maria didn't have anything forced upon her. Otto was quite respectful. he was just better looking than he normally is. want to take a shot at another analogy?



well lookee there! you made an even worse analogy. hearing about someone and knowing them intimately isn't remotely the same thing. she got a chance to know Otto w/o any element of prejudice. and she deemed him bangable. mind you, it wasn't even his body that was the selling point. and how do we know that she wouldn't have slept with him; if she had met him as Otto Octavius? it's not like Otto's undatable. I can rattle off the names of 3 women who fell for him; prior to Anna Maria.




thanks thread God for telling everyone when they could stop discussing such a contentious issue.

I could reply to this poster, but there is no educating some people. I just hope that he matures at some Point.
While It is just a comic book, this attitude reflects poorly on your character. Would you care to explain your point of view on this topic to your mother? Sister? Grandmother?

I will point out that clone conspiracy #4 makes it clear that Anna knew who Otto was, and was repulsed by him. Remember in Ends of the Earth he quite literally held the whole planet hostage.

Sincerely,

Thread God

[boots]

so if a woman stuffed her bra or wore fake eyelashes, and seduced you, that's rape? what if Otto, instead of swapping bodies, had simply put his mind into a body that looked like Peter's?

while i think the eyelash and bra thing is a stretch, your second point makes me wonder about where illusionists and shape shifters fall in the equation. or dual personas like shazam/billy batson.

[Michael Watkins]

I could reply to this poster, but there is no educating some people. I just hope that he matures at some Point.
While It is just a comic book, this attitude reflects poorly on your character. Would you care to explain your point of view on this topic to your mother? Sister? Grandmother?

I will point out that clone conspiracy #4 makes it clear that Anna knew who Otto was, and was repulsed by him. Remember in Ends of the Earth he quite literally held the whole planet hostage.

Sincerely,

Thread God

I read clone conspiracy 4. what I saw was her reacting to what she now knows about Otto. it wasn't rape.